Reflections on Trans Arguments

Ah, but didn't you know, we have to categorise "woman" nowadays, breaking her down into a series of distinct "groups" like "lesbian", "black", "disabled" etc., because

...to say that "woman" is the word for half the global population would be reductive and simplistic, wrongly defining women by their superficial physical traits Oh. Right. Yeah. Ignore this. It doesn't quite work, does it... Er...

OK, so, it's because

...we no longer need a word for the female 51% of humanity because they're in no way oppressed due to their biology I mean, pregnancy isn't just a female thing, is it? Or FGM. Or abortion... Er... No, hang on, scrap that, I don't quite mean that, what I mean is... Well, what I mean is... We don't need a word for the group of people who experience those things, do we, because... Er... Well...

So. Moving on. It's actually because...

It shows genuine respect for all the different types of women above to picture them in promotional campaigns (you'll know the one I mean) alongside male women - you may think this "others" women who are "lesbian", "black", "disabled", presenting them as distinct from normative able-bodied white females, but actually this deepens our understanding of what a woman is, because... OK, no. I can, actually, see how what I just said may be just a bit offensive, and that campaign could be distressing to some people. I mean, to place lesbian, black & disabled women alongside males simply to justify the males' inclusion in the female sex class! Heck. That's just... I mean... Wow. Sinking in!

So. What I mean is... Yes! We need all these reductive descriptors of different kinds of women because

Woman's become a really complicated thing to express, because it includes all these different groups, including men, so we need to explain it in detail - and, meanwhile, inclusive phrases like "vagina-owners" or "cervix-havers" aren't understood by certain distinct and oppressed demographics, like, you know, "uneducated women" and "foreign women", and... Hm. OK. Er... that doesn't come across too well either, does it, actually?

(Plus, I think I'm getting myself a bit confused.)

You know what, fuck it.

It's not because I care about women.

It's because breaking "women" down in this way is the only way to include trans-identifying males in their category, and to justify taking their word.

(And you know what? This approach to defining woman is entirely compatible with the definition of man, too! Because, after all, what is it that's defined "man" throughout human history? It's having the arrogance and the power to tell a woman precisely what she is and insist she accepts that).

You see? It all makes sense now, doesn't it? There's an internal logical consistency, after all.

Er...

Either way, cracking to see so many new usernames calling out the bonkersness of this thread’s opening post.

I am actually loving the way posters have popped up to support OP telling OP how much they agree.

Either they haven’t actually read the bonkers claims that they are agreeing with, or they are showing readers exactly the dynamic that amounts to extreme ideology. Because they obviously haven’t realised the amount of misinformation that the OP has posted that is all so easily refuted with logic or just current studies and papers.

Are you Zoe Williams?

Fact - human beings can’t change sex.

Fact - girls and women are entitled to protections in law on the basic of biological sex.

Fact - males commit most of the violent and sexual crime.

Fact - segregation by sex, where appropriate, safeguards girls and women from naturally occurring biological disadvantage, and sometimes gender based social disadvantage.

Fact - feminists on MN who are GC care about the rights, protections and dignities of girls and women. And that is a perfectly valid, lawful and worthy view.

Fact - children are being harmed by trans ideology and trans related interventions.

Fact - women are being robbed of sport and media awards due to men being allowed to compete in female categories.

Fact - women’s groups and women-only peaceful protests have been targetted and disrupted by aggressive and threatening TRAs. In many cases the police did nothing to protect the women.

Fact - no man can “live as a woman”.

Yes and will:
pretend people have written things they haven't by paraphrasing it in a HILARIOUS way (that they've seen bigger boys write on Reddit),
will embarrass themselves by stating it's 'gender critical to want people to conform to gender stereotypes',
will use the phrase 'moral panic',
will use sex and gender interchangeably,
will use 'women' to mean both 'female people' and 'people of either sex' randomly,
will go on and on about being deleted,
will say it's an echo-chamber yet be unable to post a single statement we can all agree on....

and they'll think they're doing something new and provocative!

I’m sure they’ll be back probably during the night to post multiple looooong diatribes about why we’re all wrong and men are totally women cos reasons

Yes - just like the sport one. The actual opposite of the original claim in some cases, and at the least, something that throws it intro serious question.

Meanwhile, I'm missing the laugh emoji too...

Well everyone, I'm shocked - SHOCKED - that OP just plopped out that as a first post and went deathly silent.

Any fule knowe that!

Ah, OP, you nearly had me convinced with all the jokey dismissive bullshit, but you fucked this reference right up, so nothing you can say will convince me of what you're saying because I'm too busy cringing

Brilliant 👍

Thankyou...

And I just checked to see if they'd come back to defend their arguments after seeing them challenged, suspecting what I'd see but giving them the benefit of the doubt a second time - and...

Nada. Not a follow-up post in sight.

What on earth did you hope to achieve, OP?

Yes, because, you see, in the words of the OP, "woman" is a "social role" that Afghan women play, which is wholly unrelated to their femaleness.

It makes me so ANGRY to see such foolish, naive assertions. Talk about culturally colonialist western privilege! Who needs a word for the female half of the global population anyway, they say - even as Afghan females (can't say "women" now, can I?) live as slaves.

The utter irony of the OP's bizarre "what condition are you using to define womanhood..." and reference to every woman's experience as "unique", EVEN AS the OP reduces the female half of the population, in all our glorious variety and limitless potential, into socially determined "roles" is... well... jaw-dropping.

Such unthinking complacency.

Fucksake, I came here to be entertained! Quickly went to see all OP's posts for the undoubtedly brilliant rebuttals and yet none there were. Wasting my time!

I always love when a poster who is obviously not posting in good faith comes on with a ridiculous gish gallop of easily refuted nonsense, and several posters pop up to tell him how very brave he is to post anti feminist, nasty, misogynistic guff on a feminist board.

A series of haikus from the POV of the OP

A finger shake is
All those naughty ladies need.
A good telling off!

A poorly written,
Nonsensical list of shite
Is my way to go!

Evidence debunked.
TRA talk points from 2018.
Yet I continue.

With such confidence,
I entered the Karen's den.
Reddit, here I come!

I don't know what's more annoying - the tediosity of yet another plopper, the inevitable and identically patronising 'it's perfectly simple you silly wims!' tone or the tired recycling of absolute bollocks that five minutes spent actually reading would show have been countered one million times already.

Whichever. Bore off, you hard-of-thinking little tit.

Oh look, here’s another random (apologies for the crudeness, I very quickly came upon this on terf is a slur)

I've not yet read the thread, but reading the opening post was fascinating.

So much of it is rebutted in a rigorous, evidence-based way (not just pasting a link, but reading the link, rereading it, & parsing & defending it) on this site every day.

So much that we know is factually incorrect.

But I thought, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and clicked on just one link as a sample - the peer-reviewed article on strength advantage. Guess what I found in 5 seconds' skimming the abstract?

"Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy."

If you're still around, OP, I hope by now that you've considered that the first page of dismissive posts reflects exhausted frustration at how misguided your claims are, and how frequently they're challenged and disproven here.

Fuck me that’s vile.

Ha ha ha,. Getting to the end I've realised the entirety disproves their first point about there being no such thing as trans extremism. There's worse forms I know but still...

Define “equal treatment” and in what ways trans people don’t get equal treatment.

Having a mega ‘TranTrum!’

Testerically stupid, you mean!! 😁

For you Rufus...

PAPO (POSTED AND PISSED OFF)

I posted on that Mumsnet
I told them TERF’s what’s what
Then pissed off back to Reddit
In less time than a gunshot.

I told them they were wrong
That men can indeed be wims
That those cheating men in sports
Are ladies and not hims.

That TRAs aren’t extremists
Despite the fact some are
That PB’s are like candy
And there should not be a bar.

I told them that no kids
Get their NHS free OP
Despite the proof that’s out there
That the NHS cut breasts off.

I told them that the men
Larping in women’s sports
Was just a small amount
With an F in their passports.

I told them sex-segregated sports
And fairness was a myth
As I waffled on about footy
And moved on fairly quick.

I told them transwomen are not stronger
And their muscle mass reduces
That the reduction of testosterone
Just mediocre women it produces

I told them no transwoman
Claims to be biologically female
Despite that Dr Upton bloke
Being quoted in the Mail.

I told them trans and cis
Was just like white and black
I didn’t stick around to
Watch their mouths go slack

I told that cross-dressing
Is not the same as trans
Despite the fact that Stonewall
Had completely different plans

I told them that the journey from
A man to a transwoman
Was not an instant thing
And takes a long time in the coming

I told them no one is trying
To convince kids they are tran
Despite the sharp uptick of girls
Now desperate to be a man

I finished with an insult
To the posters of the site
Told them to think of transwomen
And their terribly awful plight.

And now I’m back on Reddit
All puffed up and full of vigour
How I told that anti trans hate cult
That their words they are the trigger.

I posted on that Mumsnet
I told them TERFs what’s what
Then pissed off back to Reddit
In less time than a gunshot.