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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reflections on Trans Arguments

885 replies

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:27

TransMother · 19/06/2025 09:15

Hold on now, back in the days we philosophy students were taught how to analyse and criticise! No offense taken with opposing arguments, we were encouraged to debate and think. Halcyon days...

50 more stirs for you :)

Loving all the knowledgeable MNers coming out with all the facts, Go Vipers.

Apologies. Shall we go with current first year undergraduate philosophy student? Because I do agree that once upon a time philosophy was where you went to learn how to put together an argument that wasn’t held together with worn-out pants elastic and hope.

CassOle · 19/06/2025 09:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 09:17

Was it Isla Bryson? I thought it was Jamie Wallace - The First Trans MP? Or did he do that too?

Oh, you are right.

Sorry, I should have checked.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 09:17

CassOle · 19/06/2025 08:53

I just realised the timeline. Lime corrected us for calling Isla Bryson 'He' and 'Him' - yes, that is the double rapist, formerly known as Adam Graham, with the wig and pink leggings 'bulge' who Nicola Sturgeon accidentally invented 'rapist gender' for.

When we did not cowtow to the demanded pronouns, Lime must have gone off to find and then dump the gish gallop that is the OP of this thread.

Hell has no delusion like a trans activist scorned... or something.

Was it Isla Bryson? I thought it was Jamie Wallace - The First Trans MP? Or did he do that too?

TransMother · 19/06/2025 09:15

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:01

I’m going to go with undergraduate philosophy student who just found a thesaurus.

But also, how dare you taunt me with the bigly letters. I still have 735 anticlockwise cauldron stirs to go, and I’m getting RSI.

Edited

Hold on now, back in the days we philosophy students were taught how to analyse and criticise! No offense taken with opposing arguments, we were encouraged to debate and think. Halcyon days...

50 more stirs for you :)

Loving all the knowledgeable MNers coming out with all the facts, Go Vipers.

BloominNora · 19/06/2025 09:14

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.

Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

OK - so putting aside the incredibly patronising tone that suggests those of us who are gender critical have only come to those views because we've read it in the right wing press and don't have the ability and education to understand the issues for ourselves......

Yes gender and sex are two different things, but it is a complex combination of both of those things that makes a 'woman'. From the day we are born and observed as male or female from our secondary sex characteristics, we are slotted into the boy or girl gender box.

Even if our parents are enlightened and know that it doesn't matter one bit if a boy like to wear dresses and play with dolls or a girl likes to wear boys clothes, play with cars and get muddy, we are still boxed in by wider societies expectations and reactions to that.

For women and girls the formative experiences that come from that - the casual sexism, lack of opportunity, medical ignorance, abuse, religious oppression all have a huge impact - and then comes puberty with the changing body leading to increased leering from boys and men and the scary bleeding which is ridiculously still so taboo (and for women and girls in some countries, deadly)!

Boys and men have their own versions of all of that.

That means no matter how much a female identifies as whatever societies version of 'man' is and no matter how much a man identifies as whatever societies version of a 'woman' is, they can never be those things because they simply do not have the complex experiences that go into creating those identities from birth.

Single sex spaces are important where physical sex is an issue - prisons and sports due to differences in strength and bodies, rape crisis centres because of the trauma elements of being raped by someone who is male bodied and changing rooms and toilets because of the risk to females when so many male bodied people still think it is ok to leer at and assault people who are female bodied.

For people who are born and observed as male or female at birth and who then go through the puberty relating to that observed sex, there should be absolutely no debate whatsoever as to whether they can enter those spaces designed for the opposite sex.

For those with DSD's like Imane Khalif, I think the argument is much more nuanced (and I don't agree with people who call her a man). She was born with female secondary sex characteristics, observed female at birth and brought up female in a muslim country. She would have had all of the same formative experiences as any other girl, with her DSD only being identified at puberty (if at all before she was tested as part of her sporting career).

I do believe that with the DSD being identified, she shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports - mostly due to the safety aspect (which is a shame, but no different to someone who has to give up their sport for any other health reason) but as long as she continues to want to identify as a woman, I personally have no issue with that - because having been brought up as a girl, and having those secondary sex characteristics, she will have an innate understanding of what that means, even without female puberty.

Beyond those with DSDs (who have consistently said they do not want to be used a pawn by either side in this debate), the issue with the 'trans' community is that it is too wide an umbrella which has led to a loss of nuance and extreme entrenched positions on both sides.

There are people who are genuinely trans - and by that I mean have body dysmorphia so severe that their doctors think the only way for them to be well is to live as the opposite sex, there should be discussions around how they can access spaces that allow them to feel safe - and before all of this became such an issue, there was quiet acceptance of those people in toilets and changing rooms. They are not women, they know they are not women, but they are just trying their best to live their lives (Debbie Hayton for example - and I have known a couple of people who would fit into this in real life).

When men who wanted to claim to be women for other reasons started to adopt the trans label - that is where the issues started - from the worst case scenarios of men doing it to access sensitive female spaces like prisons or escape more severe punishments (Isla Bryson), to those who simply have a fetish and like to dress in women's clothes and go by traditionally female names but do not have genuine body dysmorphia and do not even attempt to live fully as women (MP Jamie Wallis, Eddie Izzard).

Those people are not women, no matter what clothes they wear or name they go by. Not only did they go through 'boy' childhoods and male puberty, they have spent large portions of their adulthood as men. They do not have either the physical elements nor have they ever experienced the societal and cultural elements of womanhood which is why they shouldn't be accepted as 'women'.

I had a hell of a lot of respect for Eddie Izzard when he was openly a transvestite, before all of the 'girl mode' / 'boy mode' / Suzie nonsense started. I adored the fact that he wore skirts, dresses and makeup, breaking down the gender stereotypes and sticking his finger up to toxic masculinity.

Men like him could be such a force for good in the world, breaking down harmful stereotypes, showing the world that it doesn't matter what you wear or even call yourself, what matters is who you are, but instead they choose to go down the regressive route and embed those harmful stereotypes even further.

More of those men need to take a leaf out the book of the men from Strictly. Nikita Kuzmin and Vito Koppola - both incredibly masculine, straight (or maybe bi), but neither have a problem with wearing 'women's' clothes or dancing intimately with other men. Similarly gay and arguably more effeminate men like Layton Williams and Johanas Radebe look particularly fabulous in 'womens' clothes - but they are all men, don't try to claim to be women and they are bloody fabulous for it!

Wear what you want to wear, use whatever name you want to use, but don't try and claim to be something that you are not and can have absolutely no concept of.

You want to wear dresses and make-up and call yourself Jane, go for it! You want spaces where you can go so that you do not have to use 'mens' toilets or changing rooms, fight for that third space and I'll be right there fighting with you.

You need rape crisis centres but don't want to go to a men's group session - no problem, work to get specialist 1-2-1 or trans group therapy made more widely available.

Want to play sport, but not in the men's category? Again, fight for an 'open' or third category to be set up.

Just respect that until society sorts itself out and stamps out sex based violence and regressive stereotypes and moves away from patriarchy and religious oppression, women will need single sex spaces.

If as much effort had been put into all of the above, instead of trying to break down the hard fought for rights and spaces created for women and girls, society would be a much nicer and fairer place and the toxic, vile, extreme right, would have much less ammunition to use in gaining their power.

JuneJustRains · 19/06/2025 09:02

the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood

Eh?

Who excluded them from womanhood? Very shortsighted people?

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 09:01

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 08:55

Biggly

or

just long and impenetrable?

I’m going to go with undergraduate philosophy student who just found a thesaurus.

But also, how dare you taunt me with the bigly letters. I still have 735 anticlockwise cauldron stirs to go, and I’m getting RSI.

Helleofabore · 19/06/2025 08:55

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 08:43

He’s over on the Stephen Fry thread using bigly words. Everyone is cowed and embarrassed and is quickly changing their minds.

Biggly

or

just long and impenetrable?

CassOle · 19/06/2025 08:53

I just realised the timeline. Lime corrected us for calling Isla Bryson 'He' and 'Him' - yes, that is the double rapist, formerly known as Adam Graham, with the wig and pink leggings 'bulge' who Nicola Sturgeon accidentally invented 'rapist gender' for.

When we did not cowtow to the demanded pronouns, Lime must have gone off to find and then dump the gish gallop that is the OP of this thread.

Hell has no delusion like a trans activist scorned... or something.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 08:43

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 08:28

Has the OP been back?

Or did they slink back to Reddit to lick their wounds?

😂😂😂

He’s over on the Stephen Fry thread using bigly words. Everyone is cowed and embarrassed and is quickly changing their minds.

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 08:33

We all know the OP won't have the guts to come back after they've been well and truly demolished. They've embarrassed themselves and showed their deep ignorance and lack of education on this subject. Other readers will be able to read their embarrassing post and the replies, and decide accordingly.

Yet another Gender Ideology activist crashes and burns and embarrasses themself. Just another day on FWR.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 08:30

He won’t be back. Mission accomplished.

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 08:30

If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition.

There is. Having a body that develops to facilitate the production of large gametes.

HTH OP.

TheKeatingFive · 19/06/2025 08:28

Has the OP been back?

Or did they slink back to Reddit to lick their wounds?

😂😂😂

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 08:25

Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.

WRONG! “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are SEXED titles, not 'gender titles' or 'social roles'. A man is an adult human male. A woman is an adult human female. A boy is child human male. A girl is a child human female. These are SEXED TERMS. And using Stonewall as a link makes you look like a joke.

The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.

WRONG! The idea that a male has the same lived experience as a girl; growing from a girl to getting periods, being whistled at, experiencing misogyny etc, is ridiculous. It's akin to saying Rachel Dolezal has the same history to African Americans. Male and females have separate histories and separate lived experiences. Males as the oppressor males, females as the oppressed class. As males, transwomen do not share the same history of oppression or lived experience, as the males with Male Privilege they are.

If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Transwomen are MALES with PENIS AND TESTICLES and of the oppressor sex class. Women are adult human females. No definition of womanhood includes males of any type.

No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans.

WRONG! Children all around the world are being convinced they are trans by their teachers who refuse to tell their parents the child's new name and pronouns. This has been testified by many transchildren themselves.

If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth

No one is 'assigned' a sex at birth, please don't use unscientific cult buzz terms. Sex is assigned the moment the sperm enters the ova, observed at the 20 week scan, and again at birth.

The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues

Yes they are good at taking advantage of children with autism. And please don't use the homophobic slur 'que-r'.

Now that you've had your arse handed to you with facts and evidence, and your points demolished, now would be a good time to admit you're in an anti-women hate cult and you've been misled by lies, distortions, misrepresentations and false statistics.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 08:20

I’d missed this howler in the OP:

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.

mate, no one here thinks it’s because men were being beaten by women, that’s a batshit TRA argument. Did you mean to write “women”? 😂

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 08:11

There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.

WRONG! Oestrogen does one fifth of eff all. It does not reduce strength nor performance, nor does it reduce limb length, pelvic rotation or heart and lung size and capacity. All studies have PROVEN there is no real reduction in male advantage.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648944/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39716906/

Reflections on Trans Arguments
TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 08:06

There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.

WRONG! Over 5000 transwomen victors, 27 world records, 109 U.S. records, $1.6 million in prize money. Just in the last few years. It's an epidemic. http://shewon.org and www.hecheated.org

Even if it were 'only a few' how many is enough to justify women and girls having fair sport and safe sport? GIVE US A NUMBER that you think you would concede that women and girls deserve our human rights. Come on, how many? To us, ONE is ONE TOO MANY. We don't say 'oh it's only a few Lance Armstrongs or dopers, why bother'.

Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.

WRONG! Womens categories were created because males are stronger and faster and women have no hope in competing against males. Even Serena Williams said the lowest seeded male would beat her.

https://thesportjournal.org/article/a-history-of-women-in-sport-prior-to-title-ix/
https://womeninsport.org/safe-and-fair-sport-for-women-and-girls/

and

"Yes, one of the primary reasons women's sports were created was to provide fair and equitable opportunities for female athletes to compete and achieve recognition. While initially separate from men's sports due to societal norms, the establishment of women's categories aimed to address the historical lack of access and opportunity for women in athletics. This included addressing physiological differences and ensuring women could compete on a level playing field.

Here's a more detailed look:
Historical Context:
Traditionally, women faced significant barriers to participating in sports, often excluded due to societal expectations about their roles and physical capabilities.

Addressing Inequality:
Establishing separate leagues and competitions for women was a crucial step in creating opportunities where women could develop their athletic abilities, compete at various levels, and achieve recognition.

Fairness and Physiological Differences:
The recognition of biological differences between males and females in sports is a key factor in creating fair competition. This includes acknowledging the unique physical attributes and potential performance differences, which led to the establishment of separate categories to ensure fair play.

Evolving Understanding:
Over time, there's been a growing understanding that women's sports should be both inclusive and safe, with ongoing discussions and adjustments to policies to address fairness and inclusion.

Beyond Participation:
The focus has expanded beyond just participation to include equal pay, opportunities for sponsorship, and representation in leadership roles within sports."

http://www.shewon.org

https://t.co/Vh2Us2ArtY

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 19/06/2025 08:06

It was nice of LimeFinch to line up their best evidence all in one place for us to debunk at leisure. And doing a WPATH - writing headline conclusions that either have nothing to do with the linked evidence or directly contradict them.

If that's all they've got then we've got nothing to worry about.

Waitwhat23 · 19/06/2025 08:03

OP, when even other TRA's are elbowing you and hissing 'will you shut up!', it might be time to have a wee period of contemplation.

ApocalipstickNow · 19/06/2025 08:01

MyQuirkyTraybake · 19/06/2025 00:07

Thanks LimeFinch, you seem really knowledgable on this topic. Maybe you can help me. What is the definition of gender? I keep asking this and searching but I can't find one.

I think, at this stage, you may as well be shouting “what are the 39 Steps?!”😂

TooSquaretobehip · 19/06/2025 07:53

Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.

Wrong. They are not irreversible. And they are not lifesaving which is WHY left wing governments all around the world have stopped them.

Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
Reflections on Trans Arguments
TheaBrandt1 · 19/06/2025 07:49

Cringing for this op and the little “I agree” posters who aren’t able to refute any of the counter arguments I see!

lifeturnsonadime · 19/06/2025 07:43

The bloody cheek of some people (men) turning up on Mumsnet, of all places, to mansplain that biological sex is less important than a set of stereotypes 🤣.

JessaWoo · 19/06/2025 01:55

Even I think that was ridiculous.