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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Reflections on Trans Arguments

885 replies

LimeFinch · 18/06/2025 16:17

I've noticed a lot of general discourse about trans people that is based on misinformation, some of it dangerous, most of it born out of ignorance, so here's a handy reference to counter some of the claims I've seen.

Trans People are extremist! That's wot I done heard!
Transgender extremism doesn't exist - it's just a right-wing talking point used to discredit legitimate healthcare and equality efforts.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-un-view-trans-rights-much-needed-common-sense
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/11/hilary-cass-trans-children-review
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/02/gender-critical-beliefs-under-the-microscope

Puberty Blockers are Dangerous! My total lack of medical knowledge says so!
Puberty blockers are often lifesaving interventions. They're prescribed only after long assessments involving NHS gender clinics, parents, and specialists. They are fully reversible and shown to reduce the risk of suicide in young people with persistent gender dysphoria.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/tonic-psh-consultation-analysis-report.pdf
https://www.bmj.com/content/386/bmj.q1638.short
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/resources/interim-service-specification-specialist-gender-dysphoria-services-consultation-response
https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/news-events/news/rcpch-responds-publication-final-report-cass-review

I Heard They're Changing Kids' Genitalia!
No people under 18 are getting genital surgery in the UK. NHS policy and private clinics alike restrict this to adults.
Indeed, more cisgender teens receive breast reduction surgery on the NHS than trans teens receive chest masculinisation surgery. The procedures follow similar approval processes, yet only one group is routinely scrutinised.
https://pure.johnshopkins.edu/en/publications/breast-surgery-in-adolescents-cisgender-breast-reduction-versus-t
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/10/revealed-thousands-of-trans-surgeries-carried-out-by-nhs/

They're in Women's Sports! I read it on teh internets!
There are only a small number of openly trans athletes competing at a professional level in the world, and none are dominating their fields.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

But, but, but, Women's Sports! No men!
Sex-segregated sports were historically introduced to exclude women, not because men were being beaten. The idea that it was about fairness is a myth.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/13/how-the-fa-banned-womens-football-in-1921-and-tried-to-justify-it
https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/en/publications/health-gender-and-inequality-in-sport-a-historical-perspective

Ok, but Trans-women are Stronger. That ain't Fair!
There is no consistent biological advantage for trans women in elite sport. Oestrogen therapy significantly reduces muscle mass, strength and performance over time. Regulations often require minimum hormone levels and transition periods before competing.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/59312313

Trans-Women are Men!!!!!! Any fule knowe that!
Identity is personal. “Man”, “woman”, “boy”, and “girl” are social roles - that’s gender. Not to be confused with biological sex - male and female. No trans woman claims to be biologically female, and no trans man claims to be biologically male. That’s another right-wing straw man argument.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/resources/lgbtq-hubs/trans-hub/the-truth-about-trans

Trans History is Different to Women's History
The idea that trans women have a “separate history” to cis women echoes the same tactics once used to exclude Black women and disabled women from womanhood.
https://blog.bham.ac.uk/socialsciencesbirmingham/2024/03/08/international-womens-day-trans-women-cannot-be-left-behind/
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/trans-and-disability-justice-how-are-our-struggles-linked
Tall women, Black women, trans women - these are all adjectives describing different types of women. Every woman’s experience of womanhood is unique. If you exclude trans women from being women, what condition are you using to define womanhood? There isn’t one necessary condition. So trans women cannot be excluded from womanhood on this basis.

Trans-Women are Men in Dresses! I read it in the Daily Mail!
Crossdressing is not the same as being trans. Many cis men crossdress and are not trans.
https://fiorry.co/glossary/crossdresser/

But Anybody can be Trans in an Instant! I'm scared!
The risk of coming out as trans due to internalised homophobia and sexism is a real thing but is not as common as many would have you believe. That’s why the NHS has a structured care pathway with long waiting times and assessments. No one can simply walk in and access hormones or surgery. Many people are left in limbo for years unless they are in crisis or suicidal.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/
https://transactual.org.uk/trans-lives-21/

Organisations are Convincing Kids They're Trans! Think of the Children!
No one is trying to “convince” people they’re trans. If you feel deep discomfort with the sex you were assigned at birth, you might be trans - but that’s for you to explore, not for anyone else to decide. The queer community is generally very good at spotting people who are dealing with internalised issues - no one wants anyone to transition unless it’s truly needed. This whole “kids being convinced” thing is another empty scare story.
https://transactual.org.uk/healthcare-professionals/inclusive-healthcare/
https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/referral-pathway-for-children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-community-and-hospital-paediatric-services/

Now, I'm very aware of the MN reputation for shutting down the threads - and removing the accounts - of anyone who doesn't go along with the anti-trans-hate-cult, but for the short time this thread remains up it's worth taking some time to actually look at the links, to think about the status of trans-women in the current society, and consider how this judgement - and the subsequent interpretation of the same by those who are a little hard of thinking - might reflect on us as self-assumed rational, reasonable human beings.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
42
Waitwhat23 · 19/06/2025 16:17

BackToLurk · 19/06/2025 14:24

I wonder who the 'we' are in @LimeFinch's post. The 'us' receiving all those private positive responses.

Anyone remember the thread when there was clearly a cabal of idiots working together and they dropped the ball when they fucked up and replied with the wrong username.

That was a funny one!

WitchyWitcherson · 19/06/2025 16:16

(Forgive me, it's 32.5 degrees in here...)

WitchyWitcherson · 19/06/2025 16:16

There once was a poster called LimeFinch
Who thought it would be a cinch
To educate wims
With lists of things
That he obviously read with his eyes scrinch(ed)

Datun · 19/06/2025 16:08

Or did he crash the servers, due to an over extended word count?

Datun · 19/06/2025 16:08

Lime not managed to stay within site guidelines?

behold my shocked face

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 15:57

Very good point @Waitingfordoggo

Waitingfordoggo · 19/06/2025 15:50

I think we had to expect shit like this.

The cult is crashing and burning in real time, and its members are not going to go down without a ‘fight’. It’s just a bit humiliating for them that this ‘fight’ consists of regurgitating ‘points’ that have already been disproved, multiple times over a number of years, and in court. And regurgitating these points at a group of women who probably know more about the history and intricacies of this issue than almost anyone else I can think of. Women whose professional and personal lives have given them decades of experience and wisdom. Who have patiently (and sometimes not so patiently, understandably) argued against the OP’s ‘points’ again and again and again on these boards. Thank you amazing and wonderful women of MN.

Let’s just smile and wave as their ship goes down. Yes it feels a bit awkward having to witness the rantings of humiliated men, but we will bear it- we’ve been through much worse. Most of us have experience of managing the behaviour of raging toddlers and this is no different. So I’m going to leave them to it and enjoy the sunlight, in both senses. ☀️

ParmaVioletTea · 19/06/2025 15:38

Fingernailbiter · 19/06/2025 14:05

So when people disagree with you, you just assume they aren’t clever enough to understand brilliant you.

You're sounding more like an arrogant, entitled man - men? - every minute. It would be funny if it wasn’t so pathetic.

Edited

I assumed the OP is a trans-identified man, with noooooo idea about what life as a woman is really like. But he wants to tell us all about it, becoz - y'know, we is just little women who know nuthin'

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 15:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 13:41

A bunch of nutters on Reddit, no doubt.

Hello, fans!

<waves>

It's 19th June 2025, it's a lovely sunny day in the civilised world Europe, and trans women are still men.

Suspiciously similar posters have boasted about it before, see screenshot in this relevant thread. And heed the advice about dodgy links.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5336710-google-docs-in-troll-posts?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Google docs in troll posts | Mumsnet

Hi MN. Another thread recently deleted contained a Google docs link. The thread was started by a troll, who openly stated their intent to keep posti...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5336710-google-docs-in-troll-posts?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

Myalternate · 19/06/2025 15:21

Who are the 'we' and 'us' in your previous post?

🖐️ Please can I answer?

They’re the Reddit crew …

Their homework was to pick a topic - we know the only topic is themselves.
Think of a question. - same as always. No original thought.
Attach random articles without oversight as evidenced by the articles presented.

and submit it to the Master…

0/10 Really must do better.
Research, research, research!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/06/2025 15:15

Datun · 19/06/2025 14:26

I know, right. I think it's the one in the Wonder Woman outfit 🤣

Haha 🤣

lechiffre55 · 19/06/2025 15:12

Beowulfa · 19/06/2025 14:59

The OP hasn't included the main "anti trans" argument- and that's the sad fact that we are all embittered dried-up hags with unshaven legs and sensible shoes; desperately fearful that transwomen will steal our men with their vastly superior pouty and tilty version of womanhood. It's what the Supreme Court judges were really discussing.

You forgot the girly pillowfight sleepovers and really swishy dresses. Not just swishy dresses but really, held up by giggling magic pixies flying around holding the hem, swishy dresses.
My preferred word for pouty tilty heads in this context is cockettish please.

Oldfashioneddinosaur · 19/06/2025 15:10

ninjahamster · 18/06/2025 16:28

You are brave posting this! FWIW I agree with the points you make.

Not sure brave would be the adjective I would use

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/06/2025 15:08

Beowulfa · 19/06/2025 14:59

The OP hasn't included the main "anti trans" argument- and that's the sad fact that we are all embittered dried-up hags with unshaven legs and sensible shoes; desperately fearful that transwomen will steal our men with their vastly superior pouty and tilty version of womanhood. It's what the Supreme Court judges were really discussing.

"Dried up" is a bit rich coming from people whose neo vaginas don't self lubricate.

DiamondThrone · 19/06/2025 15:01

Beowulfa · 19/06/2025 14:59

The OP hasn't included the main "anti trans" argument- and that's the sad fact that we are all embittered dried-up hags with unshaven legs and sensible shoes; desperately fearful that transwomen will steal our men with their vastly superior pouty and tilty version of womanhood. It's what the Supreme Court judges were really discussing.

Yes, we're all terrified that all those "cute" (it's always "cute" they call themselves in their selfies) transwomen will take our menfolk away.

Beowulfa · 19/06/2025 14:59

The OP hasn't included the main "anti trans" argument- and that's the sad fact that we are all embittered dried-up hags with unshaven legs and sensible shoes; desperately fearful that transwomen will steal our men with their vastly superior pouty and tilty version of womanhood. It's what the Supreme Court judges were really discussing.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 19/06/2025 14:58

I’m pretty sure now that this is performance art. This is my mental image of the OP:

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 14:57

Why did you support a claim about NHS surgical provision with a piece about US figures?

Please don't ask sensible intelligent questions. The OP will only have to ignore them.

BackToLurk · 19/06/2025 14:50

I have questions @LimeFinch

Why did you support a claim about NHS surgical provision with a piece about US figures?

Why do you not appear to understand that many of the links you provided, as detailed through this thread, didn't say what you appeared to think they said?

Why did you completely ignore any reply that provided direct evidence of the inaccuracy of your 'points' e.g. "No trans woman claims to be biologically female"

Who are the 'we' and 'us' in your previous post?

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 14:48

catastrophickitchen · 19/06/2025 14:46

I'm off to make some cookies. A much more productive use of a person's time.

So is taking a shit, tbf.

catastrophickitchen · 19/06/2025 14:46

I'm off to make some cookies. A much more productive use of a person's time.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2025 14:46

WinterTrees · 19/06/2025 14:44

I recognise the pompous, pseudo-intellectual-yet-chatty, self-satisfied tone of LimeFinch's posts, and the quite niche use of 'any fule kno'...

Could it be our favourite performative knitter and extreme porn advocate?

Who cares?

WinterTrees · 19/06/2025 14:44

I recognise the pompous, pseudo-intellectual-yet-chatty, self-satisfied tone of LimeFinch's posts, and the quite niche use of 'any fule kno'...

Could it be our favourite performative knitter and extreme porn advocate?

DiamondThrone · 19/06/2025 14:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Are you not going to answer any of replies to your tedious list of links?

Or, to put it in pretentious words you might prefer, Are you declining to opine on previous salient points?

Swipe left for the next trending thread