Reflections on Trans Arguments

@Keepthecat

Could you anwer the above question now please?

Apologies if I've missed your reply.

Genuinely interested.....

OP
Will you anwer my question this time please?

It's a genuine question....

Well put - I think you are right.

• We keep seeing people coming on here with extreme views which are unsubstantiated and for which there is no evidence
• We keep seeing people who post and leave, or who won't listen to discussion, science or reason and keep posting nonsense
• We see men coming on here, claiming to be women and therefore representing the views of women (clearly not possible!)

At times it does seem as though it is not worth trying - if those people can't even accept the core biological / legal reality that you are the sex you were born and can't change, then it becomes very difficult to get them to accept that their other arguments are wrong...

In 40+ years of internet - from dial up bulletin boards to the fancy websites we have now, I think I have never seen so extreme a view as to believe that a man can become a woman - it is like claiming that a cat can become a saucepan, or that a pen can grow wings and become a transatlantic aeroplane - it is so outside the realms of reality and science that it has to be about the most extreme thing I have ever seen or heard - but it is great to hear that you do not agree with such absurdities...

those who stand for truth, science, the law and reality should stand together!

I am sure some parents of trans identifying offspring are desperate to find 💯 validation. They think their life and the life of their child will be made easier if they only ever encounter validation. But they fail to acknowledge that at some point validation won’t be enough.

Out of interest, did the OP ever comment on the cases where a transwoman claimed to be a biological woman?

because that woukd seem to be the eaters of their points to debate.

they said no transwomen claimed to be a biological women and we have provided examples where they have. Does OP think we are lying or do their have to change their viewpoint? And if not, why not?

However, in all that process they might have been conditioned to think that discussion and not using accepted language is hate and bigotry.

And as I have seen recently on another thread, there simply is no way to discuss some topics without being classed as hateful. It is like those testimonials, we can think any opinion we want to, but there is no way to articulate the opinion that is not hateful to some people.

Of course, it makes discussion impossible. And that is totalitarian and authoritarian. But apparently, we are the bad guys to be shamed.

The Chilling Effect.

When someone you know has a gender questioning child and it kills all rational conversation about sex and how sex is not gender and you can't change sex within a half mile radius of you.

This it is impossible to have a conversation which is balanced.

Then those parents come here and have the shock of their lives because suddenly they aren't in Kansas anymore and people speak freely instead of in hushed whispers where they can't be heard by the parents who have been fully signed up to the madness.

I learnt recently that a type of Skimmia can be a hermaphrodite. Never knew that!

Skimmia can be hermaphrodite, but human sex is binary.

Human sex is binary and can't be changed. Because we're mammals. The rest of the animal kingdom has a lot more fun, clownfish can change sex, crocodiles' sex is determined by what temperature the eggs are incubated at, and earthworms are hermaphrodites.

But not humans. Mammals are boring bastards.

I would hope so too.

And yet, even if people just came onto this board and read the links that people posted they probably would end up with a variety of information that they can work through and work out their position better. If they read a link they disagree with, it is helpful to work out why they disagree with it and whether that disagreement comes from a basis of fact and established science, or pure emotion.

I wonder if that comes with the realisation of just how much pressure you (a general you) are under to conform to what is considered the righteous group or to accommodate loved ones.

This may sound harsh, but I'm trying to be as neutral as I can

The problem for parents of 'trans children' is this - have they, or other activists, or medical professionals Qwritten cheques to their children that they expect everyone else to cash?

Because the world is under no obligation to pretend that your child changed sex. Or grant them entry to sex specific spaces that don't belong to them.

If the trans people in question have no expectations of that, they just want to present as the opposite sex, then cool, there are no issues.

But if they do, other people's rights, other people's senses, other people's fact based understanding of the world comes into play.

I would hope that parents of children thinking of transitioning would be having some hard conversations about that before embarking on the process.

When it belongs to the artists formerly known as the right side of history.

Apparently.

And then cry when you are called out for your attempts to shame and scold the posters

Apparently, we are a cult and that we are same tiny amount of posters just repeating our views. And we are hypocritical.

I said this on another thread, when did it become acceptable to come and post on boards as a new poster and make negative generalisations and direct accusations at regular posters and then claim that they are not open for discussion? When did that behaviour, which is not engaging positively or even neutrally, become acceptable and righteous?

I don't want to hear the views of people who do not agree, I want to hear their arguments. Why don't they agree? What are the flaws in my position? What does not stand up for them?

But we don't get that.

We either get the OP's Gish Gallop of sources that had they bothered to read what women here are saying first they would realise have been discussed and debunked already - and note that does not mean that the debunking was correct, it just means if you jump in after it's happened you need to deal with the argument as it now stands and address the debunking, not jump onto square one of the board then complain when everyone else says "uh yeah, we've done that. What else have you got?" - or we get "You are all awful people!!! Oh, well, ok I didn't know that. I don't KNOW alright??? All I know is that my trans friend is lovely so you must be wrong and I just came here to talk to you and you are awful and have bullied me off!!", or we get "You are just bigots who think trans women are all rapists and perverts" (I don't, I just think they are not any closer to being a woman than any other man and certainly not in a way that makes a male body interchangeable with a female one).

I am openminded but I have thought about this for a long time, not least because it is the outlier in the bundle of views I do sign up to. I know why I think what I think. So while I acknowledge others have other views and hold them equally strongly without for the most part being bad people, you can't convince me what I think is wrong if you can't convince me you understand why I think it. To change my mind you need to show me either my fundamental observations are wrong or the logic I build on top of them doesn't stand up.

What, this group is about TRANS issues? I'm going to have to go somewhere else for my Hornby double-0 discussions.

I'd actually be quite interested in that, Penny! 😄

I like to hear the for and against on any subject. But I just haven't heard any convincing arguments that make me agree women should give up their rights to spaces, sports and services to some males who decide they want them.

Well remember PennyAnn... those posters are agreeing with the OP that the earth is flat and agree with their links.

But it is all about taking the opportunity to shame other posters and I doubt it will sink in at all. There seems to be a group of people who think there is a shield of righteousness around them that means they don't ever have to thinking critically about what they are agreeing with.

Look, there's no need to get so upset about it if it was a misunderstanding.

It's just that you posted on a thread called "Reflections on Trans Arguments" and grumbled at people talking about trans arguments.

Yep.

LostInCatsFur

there are two other boards devoted to parents of trans children

What is there to discuss? If someone came on here and tried to persuade us the earth is flat and produced a 12th century map as proof should we all discuss the merits of their argument too?

There's another board here called something like "Parents of LGBT children" that might be useful?