Page 6 | is this legal

javyd · 2025-06-15T18:30:21+00:00

is it legal for the RSPB to advertise this women only walk and then say it’s for anyone who identifies as a woman or anyone who is non binary? So basically a mixed sex walk: [[https://events.rspb.org.uk/events/96479?fbclid=IwQ0xDSwK78EFleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHuuR3UtdrATGnTTt5ySxJ2WYamEz4NDR_kaGslT5fzD6KXb0R73aBSl4iXxp_aem_Tl1LwIsISF5qJxKMiI80Bg https://events.rspb.org.uk/events/96479?fbclid=IwQ0xDSwK78EFleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHuuR3UtdrATGnTTt5ySxJ2WYamEz4NDR_kaGslT5fzD6KXb0R73aBSl4iXxp_aem_Tl1LwIsISF5qJxKMiI80Bg]]

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/06/2025 00:23

The PC of gender reassignment does not require any evidence that you are planning to get a GRC. It’s completely unnecessary to have a GRC.

IwantToRetire · 16/06/2025 00:20

spannasaurus · 15/06/2025 23:33

The PC of gender reassignment in the EA doesn't require someone to have a GRC

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But does require evidence that you are progressing down the accepted pathway to get one.

So self iding isn't enough.

As has been said, and confirmed at the WEC at the moment this is less than 10,000 people.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/06/2025 00:19

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 23:41

I think it was examples of how to define an even smaller group of women by using additional "shared" protected characteristics. If you advertise just for women then all women can come. But if you go with shared protected characteristics you could reduce your group size by using:

two = lesbians (women & sexual orientation of homosexuality)
three = black lesbians, or
four = black disabled lesbians or
five = black, disabled, pregnant lesbians
six = black, disabled, pregnant, Buddhist lesbians
seven = black, disabled, pregnant, Buddhist lesbians, under 40
eight = black, disabled, pregnant, Buddhist lesbians, under 40
nine = black, disabled, pregnant, Buddhist lesbians, under 40 and in a same sex marriage.

Obviously your might be a bit lonely if you go the whole hog 😂but as a white woman I could legally be excluded

Edited

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On the tenth day of Christmas 😂

IwantToRetire · 16/06/2025 00:17

PennyAnnLane · 15/06/2025 23:19

Organisations don’t get to decide whether they are bound by the law or not, otherwise they’d all decide they’re not and discriminate away to their hearts content!

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I am pointing out that in terms of the EA to put on an event, service that discriminates against others has to be proportionate to a legitimate aim.

I dont think (apart from toilets, sport and support services) there have been many cases that make out for instance that bird watching meets the same need.

Although of course I personally think women only events, learning etc., are all proporationate and legitimate.

I am just not certain that there have been any court cases about other areas of live.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/06/2025 00:15

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 23:49

Yes sorry I'm getting in a muddle

In FWS 1 Scotgov lost straight away when they wanted trans people to self ID as women for the public boards law.
In FWS 2 Scotgov lost at the SC when they wanted GRC holders as women for the public boards law.

This made me think there was a two tier system - what am I muddling up?

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There is to an extent, because whether something is discriminatory on the basis of gender reassignment can be considered on a case by case basis and a GRC gives more weight, it’s seen as more serious (not including access to women’s spaces, but that was the implication and position of TRAs before the SC ruling). See R v Green in 2013, a male prisoner who was denied some female coded things he wanted because he didn’t have a GRC.

IwantToRetire · 16/06/2025 00:14

As Susan of FWS - anywhere there is segregation by sex for employment, services or associations the EA is invoked.

I think the issue of participation is obviously valid, what I am not clear about is something that is purely a social event.

There is a thread about how the L Community having been told they could have an event for lesbians to socialise at a sort of picnic have now been told they cant.

IwantToRetire · 16/06/2025 00:10

OldCrone · 15/06/2025 23:29

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Lesbians are women, so anything for women automatically includes lesbians.

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Yes of course lesbians are women, but depending on the purpose of a group or whatever, some women may not be clear if as lesbians they are included. Or alternatively there may be a case for saying heterosexual women.

That's all.

Although in each instance the provider has to be able to say it is proporationate in terms of achieving a legitimate aim.

As I was only responding to question about 2 protected characteristics.

OldCrone · 16/06/2025 00:09

Christinapple · 15/06/2025 23:51

I thought the issue with trans people was about sports and bathrooms? This is a walk out in public.

I dropped them an email to show them this thread should give them a laugh.

The Supreme court ruling was about the Equality Act, which applies to much more than sports and public toilets.

You seem to be in the US with your talk of "bathrooms", so it won’t affect you unless you visit the UK.

Mmmnotsure · 16/06/2025 00:09

Christinapple · 15/06/2025 23:51

I thought the issue with trans people was about sports and bathrooms? This is a walk out in public.

I dropped them an email to show them this thread should give them a laugh.

You forgot prisons. And rape crisis centres. And domestic violence refuges. And any space or event or society labelled female or women.

You also forgot the law. However thank you for bringing the RSPB's attention to that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/06/2025 00:04

ToKittyornottoKitty · 15/06/2025 19:49

Again, try readying the whole thing. Or report to the police if you really think a law has been broken.

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It’s a civil matter not a criminal one.

Mmmnotsure · 16/06/2025 00:03

@mazzikid To the PP who asked what is different about trans women and men; in my experience almost everything? Personality, interests, empathy.

I would suggest that your personal experience is not enough. Another thread atm is discussing someone who would identify as (in your words) a trans woman - like your friends - but who is exhibiting
personality - forcing his way into women's toilets when he is being asked by women not to do so; aggressive disregard for the law
interests - seem to be trains, cars and planes (nothing to stop women having these interests, but you mention specifically things like arts and crafts)
empathy - seemingly absolutely none where women are concerned.

This "not my Nigel" approach cannot be the basis for policy and the organising of society.

Datun · 15/06/2025 23:58

Christinapple · 15/06/2025 23:51

I thought the issue with trans people was about sports and bathrooms? This is a walk out in public.

I dropped them an email to show them this thread should give them a laugh.

Good. They need to understand the law. I bet the RSPB don't want to be in the papers for being sued.

I'm not surprised you don't get it. plenty of people don't understand why some women would feel rather upset when they thought they were going to an all female outing, only to find they weren't.

And there are men, of course, who might wonder why they were being excluded on the basis of their sex but some other men weren't.

Amazing how some people find illegal discrimination perfectly acceptable tho.

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 23:52

mazzikid · 15/06/2025 23:38

Well shit, guess I won't be going to many women's events any more. I don't tend to go to these things alone and it would feel nasty to start excluding one or two of my friends from everything.

I appreciate there's nothing really I, or anyone else, can do about it- the law is the law. It's just sad, I suppose, that a decision with so many positives in turn bans inclusive groups and events that have been happily existing without issue.

To the PP who asked what is different about trans women and men; in my experience almost everything? Personality, interests, empathy. Not to say that men aren't empathetic, but they don't tend to understand women's interests particularly well and tend to change the conversation topics. I didn't know my trans friends were trans for a good while so the only real difference is biology- and that tends not to affect arts and crafts or nature walking groups.

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I don't think you will have to worry because there are lots of people who will want inclusive groups - they'll just be labelled differently. We just need to agree the new inclusive language/terms and it will be fine

Christinapple · 15/06/2025 23:51

I thought the issue with trans people was about sports and bathrooms? This is a walk out in public.

I dropped them an email to show them this thread should give them a laugh.

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 23:49

spannasaurus · 15/06/2025 23:33

The PC of gender reassignment in the EA doesn't require someone to have a GRC

Show quote history

Yes sorry I'm getting in a muddle

In FWS 1 Scotgov lost straight away when they wanted trans people to self ID as women for the public boards law.
In FWS 2 Scotgov lost at the SC when they wanted GRC holders as women for the public boards law.

This made me think there was a two tier system - what am I muddling up?

Datun · 15/06/2025 23:41

mazzikid · 15/06/2025 23:38

Well shit, guess I won't be going to many women's events any more. I don't tend to go to these things alone and it would feel nasty to start excluding one or two of my friends from everything.

I appreciate there's nothing really I, or anyone else, can do about it- the law is the law. It's just sad, I suppose, that a decision with so many positives in turn bans inclusive groups and events that have been happily existing without issue.

To the PP who asked what is different about trans women and men; in my experience almost everything? Personality, interests, empathy. Not to say that men aren't empathetic, but they don't tend to understand women's interests particularly well and tend to change the conversation topics. I didn't know my trans friends were trans for a good while so the only real difference is biology- and that tends not to affect arts and crafts or nature walking groups.

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I'm sure you can go on a nature walk with your trans friends, no law can stop you doing that!

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 23:41

OldCrone · 15/06/2025 23:29

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Lesbians are women, so anything for women automatically includes lesbians.

Show quote history

I think it was examples of how to define an even smaller group of women by using additional "shared" protected characteristics. If you advertise just for women then all women can come. But if you go with shared protected characteristics you could reduce your group size by using:

two = lesbians (women & sexual orientation of homosexuality)
three = black lesbians, or
four = black disabled lesbians or
five = black, disabled, pregnant lesbians
six = black, disabled, pregnant, Buddhist lesbians
seven = black, disabled, pregnant, Buddhist lesbians, under 40
eight = black, disabled, pregnant, Buddhist lesbians, under 40
nine = black, disabled, pregnant, Buddhist lesbians, under 40 and in a same sex marriage.

Obviously your might be a bit lonely if you go the whole hog 😂but as a white woman I could legally be excluded

PennyAnnLane · 15/06/2025 23:41

mazzikid · 15/06/2025 23:38

Well shit, guess I won't be going to many women's events any more. I don't tend to go to these things alone and it would feel nasty to start excluding one or two of my friends from everything.

I appreciate there's nothing really I, or anyone else, can do about it- the law is the law. It's just sad, I suppose, that a decision with so many positives in turn bans inclusive groups and events that have been happily existing without issue.

To the PP who asked what is different about trans women and men; in my experience almost everything? Personality, interests, empathy. Not to say that men aren't empathetic, but they don't tend to understand women's interests particularly well and tend to change the conversation topics. I didn't know my trans friends were trans for a good while so the only real difference is biology- and that tends not to affect arts and crafts or nature walking groups.

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The groups you’re talking about aren’t inclusive if they’re excluding some men, but not all men. They’re discriminating unlawfully. Those types of groups will just be open to everyone in future so you can still attend.

mazzikid · 15/06/2025 23:38

Datun · 15/06/2025 23:27

The problem is the Supreme Court has said in terms of discrimination, transwomen are men. In terms of sex discrimination they are no different to any other man.

You're generally not allowed to discriminate on the basis of sex. But the law understands that sometimes it's necessary. Like prisons, sports, etc.

So they allow exceptions to the rule.

Which means you can have a woman only event, that doesn't include any men - in other words it's sometimes okay to discriminate against men on the basis of their sex.

What you can't do is discriminate against men and say you're not allowed here...except some men are.

If it's women only, that's it. No men. If you want transwomen in, you have to let all men in, otherwise they can say they are being discriminated against.

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Well shit, guess I won't be going to many women's events any more. I don't tend to go to these things alone and it would feel nasty to start excluding one or two of my friends from everything.

I appreciate there's nothing really I, or anyone else, can do about it- the law is the law. It's just sad, I suppose, that a decision with so many positives in turn bans inclusive groups and events that have been happily existing without issue.

To the PP who asked what is different about trans women and men; in my experience almost everything? Personality, interests, empathy. Not to say that men aren't empathetic, but they don't tend to understand women's interests particularly well and tend to change the conversation topics. I didn't know my trans friends were trans for a good while so the only real difference is biology- and that tends not to affect arts and crafts or nature walking groups.

spannasaurus · 15/06/2025 23:33

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 23:31

It is totally possible to have inclusive events. It is just about being clear with the marketing. But you can't ban a male if they insist on coming along too. And based on what we have seen in the last few years, it does seem likely that might happen.

Also you need to consider that to have an event for Gender Reassignment only via the EA it would only cover the 8400ish GRC holders in the entire UK as self-ID is not the law here.

I am sure that it will be possible to have inclusive events and people who are more creative than me will work out how the language can be both clear and lawful.

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The PC of gender reassignment in the EA doesn't require someone to have a GRC

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 23:31

mazzikid · 15/06/2025 23:18

I hope it's not against the law- that would feel like a massive overreach of the ruling. I appreciate the need for single sex spaces where necessary- toilets, prisons, etc- but I'd also like some things to be open to trans and non-binary women if- and only if- they want to be. I'd like to still be able to go to casual events aimed at women (including trans women and non-binary folks) without men being included by some legal necessity. Men's presence completely changes the atmosphere of so many groups, if this becomes commonplace I'll probably stop going to a lot of events altogether.

It is totally possible to have inclusive events. It is just about being clear with the marketing. But you can't ban a male if they insist on coming along too. And based on what we have seen in the last few years, it does seem likely that might happen.

Also you need to consider that to have an event for Gender Reassignment only via the EA it would only cover the 8400ish GRC holders in the entire UK as self-ID is not the law here.

I am sure that it will be possible to have inclusive events and people who are more creative than me will work out how the language can be both clear and lawful.

OldCrone · 15/06/2025 23:29

IwantToRetire · 15/06/2025 23:16

Where does the Act say you cannot discriminate in favour of two separate protected characteristics?

Well you can, but only where it is logical.

A support service for Black women or for Black Lesbians.

It is about creating a service or "space" where people with the same characteristics feel save or supported because of their shared characteristics.

What I am not sure is if you could offer a service to Black Women and Black Lesbians.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Lesbians are women, so anything for women automatically includes lesbians.

Datun · 15/06/2025 23:27

mazzikid · 15/06/2025 23:18

I hope it's not against the law- that would feel like a massive overreach of the ruling. I appreciate the need for single sex spaces where necessary- toilets, prisons, etc- but I'd also like some things to be open to trans and non-binary women if- and only if- they want to be. I'd like to still be able to go to casual events aimed at women (including trans women and non-binary folks) without men being included by some legal necessity. Men's presence completely changes the atmosphere of so many groups, if this becomes commonplace I'll probably stop going to a lot of events altogether.

The problem is the Supreme Court has said in terms of discrimination, transwomen are men. In terms of sex discrimination they are no different to any other man.

You're generally not allowed to discriminate on the basis of sex. But the law understands that sometimes it's necessary. Like prisons, sports, etc.

So they allow exceptions to the rule.

Which means you can have a woman only event, that doesn't include any men - in other words it's sometimes okay to discriminate against men on the basis of their sex.

What you can't do is discriminate against men and say you're not allowed here...except some men are.

If it's women only, that's it. No men. If you want transwomen in, you have to let all men in, otherwise they can say they are being discriminated against.

OldCrone · 15/06/2025 23:27

mazzikid · 15/06/2025 23:18

I hope it's not against the law- that would feel like a massive overreach of the ruling. I appreciate the need for single sex spaces where necessary- toilets, prisons, etc- but I'd also like some things to be open to trans and non-binary women if- and only if- they want to be. I'd like to still be able to go to casual events aimed at women (including trans women and non-binary folks) without men being included by some legal necessity. Men's presence completely changes the atmosphere of so many groups, if this becomes commonplace I'll probably stop going to a lot of events altogether.

What's the difference between "transwomen" and "non-binary" males and other men?

The presence of any men can change the atmosphere, regardless of any special gender feelings they might have.

PennyAnnLane · 15/06/2025 23:25

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 23:20

You could!
But that would be for females which includes gender reassigned trans men. Not trans women because they are not female.

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Well transmen have the protected characteristic of female sex, so they’re automatically included on that score, their gender reassignment characteristic is neither here nor there.