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NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

783 replies

KnottyAuty · 12/06/2025 20:57

NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

Original thread #1 here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1
Thread #2:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5322494-nhs-policy-audit-working-party-thread-2

This is a thread about “keeping the receipts” on NHS Policies prior to the Supreme Court ruling on 16th April 2025.

Our working theory is that there were no single sex spaces for NHS Staff or Patients in the entire country before that date, having all been removed by stealth.

We are aiming to prove this by auditing websites and policies for all the UK trusts and using the results to raise public awareness.

As well as recording what has happened historically, the information will form a baseline so we can check which Trusts comply or defy the judgement in due course...

We are working around the country region by region. If you fancy getting involved in a bit of grassroots feminism then please do join in to help!?

Each trust takes about an hour to research and you can upload online without giving any personal details away. Comment below and we can give you the link to an online survey - it changes for each region.

Thanks soooo much to all the vipers who have helped so far and @twoloons for doing a great job with the thread wrangling!

NHS Policy Audit - working party | Mumsnet

Following on from Thread #23 of the Peggie v NHS Employment Tribunal. Anyone who wants to help with survey/audit of paperwork against the Equality Act...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1

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33
Cantunseeit · 08/08/2025 11:29

@KnottyAuty @TwoLoonsAndASprout quick question re back end rationalisation.

Where there is evidence of engagement with Stonewall / Rainbow Badge but no staff policy available - should we add Y against MSA/CSG in the staff column of the table?

Harassedevictee · 08/08/2025 09:07

KnottyAuty · 08/08/2025 08:40

Thanks - food for thought.

The class action is an interesting idea. I’m not an NHS staffer so it doesn’t apply to me but I suppose this evidence would help others. How do class actions typically work?

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You are a potential patient (service user).

WRT class action this is out of my area of expertise which is why I suggested Sex Matters as they have access to legal professionals e.g. NC.

Original poster
KnottyAuty · 08/08/2025 08:40

Harassedevictee · 08/08/2025 08:25

@KnottyAuty I am sure you are way ahead of me but just in case it’s helpful once you get the final report have you considered writing to Wes Streeting along with the perm secs for DHSC and NHS England?

I would go high level that this is evidence of institutional sex discrimination of female employees and female patients. It is also institutional non-compliance with the EA2010. I am sure Sex Matters would assist, that’s if they are not already on board.

Potentially you could look at a class action or a judicial review as this affects 51% of the population and 70%+ of the workforce.

Thanks - food for thought.

The class action is an interesting idea. I’m not an NHS staffer so it doesn’t apply to me but I suppose this evidence would help others. How do class actions typically work?

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Harassedevictee · 08/08/2025 08:25

@KnottyAuty I am sure you are way ahead of me but just in case it’s helpful once you get the final report have you considered writing to Wes Streeting along with the perm secs for DHSC and NHS England?

I would go high level that this is evidence of institutional sex discrimination of female employees and female patients. It is also institutional non-compliance with the EA2010. I am sure Sex Matters would assist, that’s if they are not already on board.

Potentially you could look at a class action or a judicial review as this affects 51% of the population and 70%+ of the workforce.

Bunpea · 08/08/2025 08:11

Peregrina · 07/08/2025 21:52

From the Times article mentioned above:

It will also make clear that it will not be deemed as discrimination to exclude trans people from those facilities and that services will be allowed to request birth certificates to ensure single-sex services are protected.

Anyone see a problem with Birth Certificates? I do? What about those TiMs who have obtained new birth certificates?

Yes I absolutely see a problem with birth certificates.

Even if the UK repeals the GRA, there is still a problem with foreign born TIMs, where their birth countries permit updated birth certificates. I think there might be a lot of countries which provide this. A few random examples:

  • Ireland: Gender Recognition Act 2015, which authorizes trans individuals to change their legal gender on key documents—including birth certificates.
  • Finland: Act on Legal Recognition of Gender (in Finnish: Laki sukupuolen vahvistamisesta), permits transgender individuals to obtain an updated birth certificate.
  • South Africa: the Alteration of Sex Description and Sex Status Act, 2003 (Act No. 49 of 2003).
  • France: the “Loi de modernisation de la justice du XXIᵉ siècle” (Law for the Modernization of Justice of the 21st Century), enacted on 18 November 2016.
  • India: Transgender Persons (Protection of Rights) Act, 2019.
  • Etc.
According to Chat GPT, the ONS estimate for mid 2023 is that about 18% of the UK population (11.4 million people) were born overseas.

So relying on whatever a birth certificate says is definitely problematic.

Original poster
KnottyAuty · 07/08/2025 22:56

YouCantProveIt · 07/08/2025 22:41

@KnottyAuty - I am happy to help in whatever way I can with the second wave audit.

Thanks! The Stage 2 NHS checks are all allocated but thanks for the offer!

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YouCantProveIt · 07/08/2025 22:41

@KnottyAuty - I am happy to help in whatever way I can with the second wave audit.

Peregrina · 07/08/2025 21:52

From the Times article mentioned above:

It will also make clear that it will not be deemed as discrimination to exclude trans people from those facilities and that services will be allowed to request birth certificates to ensure single-sex services are protected.

Anyone see a problem with Birth Certificates? I do? What about those TiMs who have obtained new birth certificates?

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TwoLoonsAndASprout · 07/08/2025 13:55

Mipe · 07/08/2025 13:38

Perfect, thank you! I wasn’t sure if it meant that the trust are not doing it right so it should be N (I may have filled it in wrong on some of my audits so please check and change it if needed) 😀

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Ah! Yes, ok, that makes sense. To be clear, the question was really “do they mention Gillick competence?” because if they do, it will (almost certainly) follow the above format. If they don’t mention it at all then that’s just a No, they don’t mention it. I’ll make a note to check all the entries - thank you!

Mipe · 07/08/2025 13:38

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 07/08/2025 13:32

Yes, if the child’s view is taken over the parents’ view, even if the child is deemed to be not Gillick competent, then say yes on the form.

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Perfect, thank you! I wasn’t sure if it meant that the trust are not doing it right so it should be N (I may have filled it in wrong on some of my audits so please check and change it if needed) 😀

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 07/08/2025 13:32

Mipe · 07/08/2025 13:24

@FarriersGirl , @Cantunseeit , @TwoLoonsAndASprout , @teawamutu and any other auditors, I have a question please! With the Gillick competency, did you say Y or N if it is mentioned in the policy but trans views come before parents views? I just want to make sure we all do it the same way 😀

Yes, if the child’s view is taken over the parents’ view, even if the child is deemed to be not Gillick competent, then say yes on the form.

Mipe · 07/08/2025 13:24

@FarriersGirl , @Cantunseeit , @TwoLoonsAndASprout , @teawamutu and any other auditors, I have a question please! With the Gillick competency, did you say Y or N if it is mentioned in the policy but trans views come before parents views? I just want to make sure we all do it the same way 😀

Original poster
KnottyAuty · 06/08/2025 22:11

NotInMyyName · 05/08/2025 11:39

@KnottyAutycount me in too.

Hi - thanks so much for the offer of help. I will definitely come back to you when we have got organised. I've sent some of the previous auditors links to the FOIs so they can have a first look and then make suggestions to me about what we should put on the Jotform. Once that is all set up, we will be able to welcome you into the fold. Do bear with us - thanks!

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ItisntOver · 06/08/2025 22:10

I am potentially conflicted for universities 2, 3, 8, and 24. Those aside, I would be pleased to take a look at one of them.

Original poster
KnottyAuty · 06/08/2025 22:09

umbel · 06/08/2025 12:46

I'm up for a bit of this, though I'm not around next week. Please send me the jotform though - I may get to one or two before that.

dm sent

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Original poster
KnottyAuty · 06/08/2025 22:06

WithSilverBells · 05/08/2025 18:50

Me too, after the weekend

DM sent

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Original poster
KnottyAuty · 06/08/2025 22:03

YellowRoom · 05/08/2025 18:06

And me from the weekend

DM sent

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Original poster
KnottyAuty · 06/08/2025 21:59

Mipe · 05/08/2025 09:30

@KnottyAuty I would be happy to help with this (as well as the NHS audit of course) 😀

I'd love to send you one but I suspect you have quite enough data to handle at the moment on the Stage 2 NHS sort?! Maybe once that's done...

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Original poster
KnottyAuty · 06/08/2025 21:55

teawamutu · 04/08/2025 18:46

Happy to pitch in, as long as it can wait till the weekend when I'm back? I can try to organise if someone walks me though it.

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I'll send you Birmingham to have a look at by DM

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umbel · 06/08/2025 12:46

I'm up for a bit of this, though I'm not around next week. Please send me the jotform though - I may get to one or two before that.

Original poster
KnottyAuty · 05/08/2025 22:14

Heres the university list:

  1. University of Birmingham
  2. University of Bristol
  3. University of Cambridge
  4. Cardiff University
  5. Durham University
  6. University of Edinburgh
  7. University of Exeter
  8. University of Glasgow
  9. Imperial College London
  10. King's College London
  11. University of Leeds
  12. University of Liverpool
  13. London School of Economics and Political Science
  14. University of Manchester
  15. Newcastle University
  16. University of Nottingham
  17. University of Oxford
  18. Queen Mary University of London
  19. Queen's University Belfast
  20. University of Sheffield
  21. University of Southampton
  22. University College London
  23. University of Warwick
  24. University of York
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Original poster
KnottyAuty · 05/08/2025 21:55

Oh brilliant!
I’ll try to work out a format for the Jotform and then I’ll circulate by DM.
thanks
xx

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TwoLoonsAndASprout · 05/08/2025 19:13

You guys are all flippin’ amazing 💜💚💜💚

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