NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

Just looking at the Rainbow Badge Assessment for Kent Community Health NHS Foundation Trust as a proxy for policies as no FOI on the policies for this one. Found this which might be a breadcrumb worth following on the relatives vs community point (my bold):

"Are the Trust's compassionate and/or special leave policies inclusive of loved ones/chosen families/close support networks and supporting someone through transition?

This is an unscored question.

The special leave policy mentions that leave will be granted if there's a 'bereavement of a close member of your immediate network', which we believe covers chosen family, but could be made explicit to avoid there being any disparity of approval. Chosen families, loved ones and close support networks are those who are not biologically related or near relatives but take the place of these familial roles. This can be particularly significant to those who are estranged from their families, an issue that disproportionately affects LGBT+ people.

Action: Within the special leave policy include loved ones/chosen families/close support network in definitions of family."

@YellowRoom Have you see the AGP fetishy photos on Steph Meech’s Facebook profile? 🤮

@GreenAllOver, have you come across this about GIRES?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5354429-confusing-statement-about-treatment-for-intersex-being-a-victory-for-trans-community?reply=144987929&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

Don’t know if useful, but might have some puzzle pieces…

I know. I hate to use the “cult” word on here, because at the end of the day we are collecting hard evidence, and throwing unfounded opinions around doesn’t help things. However, forcing a wedge between a person and their family — in favour of another group — is cult-like, and I am not remotely comfortable seeing it in NHS policy documents.

Ouch!

Indeed! And thank you - I should find a few of those, because I think that there are also strong recommendations that familial support is vital for patient recovery, and discouraging this is really anti-good-health, if nothing else (and it’s so much else).

The dementia one I mentioned went further and said that family was to be sidelined in favour of the “trans community.”

Actually, that policy- led push to sideline and disregard relatives that don’t agree with the trans identity runs right through more generally. I nearly included an example yesterday but didn’t because it is in all of them. The views of the relatives of non-trans people should be sought and taken into consideration but the families of trans people who don’t agree with the patient should be ignored.

same for children with the “even when not Gillick competent” line

I should say - if anyone comes across anything related to this - including personal experience or news articles or anything, do share on here.

@KnottyAuty, you already know about this, but just for everyone on here, I am looking at the dementia angle.

There are two issues - non-trans dementia patients who want same-sex care being given trans-identified carers and being told that these are same-sex.

And the second came from one of the policy documents which stated that trans patients with dementia often “detransition” (that is, forget that they were trans). The policy document instructed staff to discourage contact with any family who went along with (the document used the words “took advantage of”) this dementia-induced detransition, which is (as far as I understand) completely contrary to all best care instructions for dementia sufferers.

I’ve seen a few that use “hate crime” to describe behaviour that doesn’t fully comply with the trans person’s wishes. Possibly linked with using the wrong pronouns. I think this is a difficult angle though as obviously trans people should not be discriminated against or harassed. I’m not sure how overt the threat is to people who won’t comply and how much only implied (but clarified by cases like Sandie’s)

Likewise, similar challenges with highlighting all the time off and kid gloves treatment for staff transitioning. I remember thinking “I bet they don’t have a check list like this for mothers returning after maternity leave” but then of course perhaps they do and the NHS is just a great employer…

I think the deception angle could be a story in its own right- how many policies we’ve only seen thanks to Ermine and how many claim single sex accommodation on websites but have hidden policies that make this a lie.

One other, that I think might be difficult to pursue sensitivity, is the inclusion of definitions for “intersex” in the policies. Some are really out there and even the less obscene don’t fit with a 21 century health service. Raises the question (for me) of who is actually writing / responsible for these policies? Surely no medically trained people would be including the term Intersex (and certainly not the definitions I’ve seen). Also saying intersex people don’t have the pc of sex. It’s truly batshit

and on who’s writing them / is there a story of the origin of the whole thing which explains why so much of them are the same- points to a centralised solution as almost all Trusts are using the same stem with a variety of embellishments (which are also repeated by other Trusts)

sorry - that turned out longer and more rambling than expected! I’ll have a proper think and come back with any other thoughts (hopefully in concise bulletpoints).

There are a couple of things from 1 or 2 early trusts that might be useful. I will have a look back when I get a few mins.

Hmm. I actually reported my own post last time I linked to some of their views on toilet design because I wasn’t sure if it crossed into being too offensive or pornographic!

@Keeptoiletssafe, I like your judicious use of “certain academics” 😆

Hello!!

From EHRC: To rely on the objective justification defence, the employer, service provider or other organisation must show that its policy or age-based rule was for a good reason – that is 'a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim'.
To prove objective justification:

• the aim must be a real, objective consideration, and not in itself discriminatory (for example, ensuring the health and safety of others would be a legitimate aim)

I believe providing single sex toilets and changing rooms, with a door gap in individual cubicles into a single sex area, will be a proportionate means of keeping everyone as safe as possible in medical emergencies and to prevent assaults in a confined space.

I believe ‘Greater privacy may be provided by having more cubicles, and by having partitions that extend from floor to ceiling, and doors that extend to the floor.’
is harmful and discriminatory to everyone at their most vulnerable. 11% of cardiac arrests happen on the loo for example.

However, transactivists like a mixed sex area with individual private cubicles within the area. It’s a design called ‘inclusive’ by certain academics. Inclusively dangerous but least unsafe for healthy men.

Afternoon All

Below is the latest update on progress with the SE Region - a strike though a name means the allocated jot form is submitted.

Acute trusts in the South East region

Ashford and St Peter’s Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust -Cantunseeit
Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust - Theeyeballsinthesky
East Kent Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Needmoretinfoil
East Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust - Yellowroom
Frimley Health NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Hampshire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
Isle of Wight NHS Trust - Cantunseeit
Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust - socialdilemma
Medway NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
Oxford University Hospitals NHS Trust - thenoisiestteramgant
Portsmouth Hospitals University NHS Trust - bluebootsgreenboots
Queen Victoria Hospital NHS Foundation Trust - cantunseeit
Royal Berkshire Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
Royal Surrey County Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
Surrey and Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust
University Hospital Southampton NHS Foundation Trust
University Hospitals Sussex NHS Foundation Trust

Community and mental health trusts in the South East region

Berkshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust - withsilverbells
Central Surrey Health - FarriersGirl
First Community Health and Care - FarriersGirl
Kent Community Health NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care Partnership Trust - Blackmetallic
Medway Community Healthcare - FarriersGirl
Oxford Health NHS Foundation Trust
Solent NHS Trust
Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust
Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu
Sussex Community NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu
Sussex Partnership NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu

Ambulance trusts in the South East region

South East Coast Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
South Central Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust

Yes. Whoever wrote this is an unqualified ignoramus, giving out downright dangerous instructions.

@TwoLoonsAndASprout you're more than welcome for the poetry, it understandably moved you greatly. And thanks for including Keeptoiletssafe - I had in mind when reading about the floor to ceiling cubicles.

I wonder if any, presumably women, did receive training in how to welcome trans identified men into their toilets.

@KnottyAuty Interested in how the under-representation of trans paramedics would be quantified - particularly as you'd not possibly ever know they'd transitioned/couldn't ask them anyway. The gov guidance said to be aware of potential legal challenges.

@YellowRoom, and this:

Greater privacy may be provided by having more cubicles, and by having partitions that extend from floor to ceiling, and doors that extend to the floor.

of course means less safety for all users in case of collapse, as @Keeptoiletssafe would definitely remind us.

@YellowRoom, the “we won’t count absences related to gender reassignment procedures as actual absences” comes up in a lot of trusts, and it makes me grind my teeth. I have a whole list of “perks” if you will, that are extended to trans members of staff that would never be considered for any other member of staff, at least not without begging and much hoop jumping, and statements that it must not be taken as setting any sort of a precedent (imagine a mother of a child going through major surgery, for example).

Also thank you for the…delightful poetry. I now need to go and listen to some angry thrash metal
or something to reset my brain.