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NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

783 replies

KnottyAuty · 12/06/2025 20:57

NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

Original thread #1 here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1
Thread #2:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5322494-nhs-policy-audit-working-party-thread-2

This is a thread about “keeping the receipts” on NHS Policies prior to the Supreme Court ruling on 16th April 2025.

Our working theory is that there were no single sex spaces for NHS Staff or Patients in the entire country before that date, having all been removed by stealth.

We are aiming to prove this by auditing websites and policies for all the UK trusts and using the results to raise public awareness.

As well as recording what has happened historically, the information will form a baseline so we can check which Trusts comply or defy the judgement in due course...

We are working around the country region by region. If you fancy getting involved in a bit of grassroots feminism then please do join in to help!?

Each trust takes about an hour to research and you can upload online without giving any personal details away. Comment below and we can give you the link to an online survey - it changes for each region.

Thanks soooo much to all the vipers who have helped so far and @twoloons for doing a great job with the thread wrangling!

NHS Policy Audit - working party | Mumsnet

Following on from Thread #23 of the Peggie v NHS Employment Tribunal. Anyone who wants to help with survey/audit of paperwork against the Equality Act...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 22:29

@GreenAllOver
In 2009 the summer recess dates were:
off 21 July 2009 until 12 October 2009
ETA Popped on the timeline also

OP posts:
WithSilverBells · 15/06/2025 22:26

Berkshire Healthcare submitted

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 18:53

Bunpea · 15/06/2025 18:49

Not sure, think it was Andy Burnham (not Milburn) as health minister from June 2009 to May 2010?

Edited

Thank you! Good spot - got my Andys in a muddle

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Bunpea · 15/06/2025 18:49

Not sure, think it was Andy Burnham (not Milburn) as health minister from June 2009 to May 2010?

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 17:48

FarriersGirl · 15/06/2025 17:34

@KnottyAuty upthread there was an ask for any particularly egregious and potentially newsworthy examples. Months ago before we got going on the audit I read up some policies and guidelines on my local acute trust website and they had a zero tolerance of any patient potentially misgendering/harassing a trans staff member, describing it as a hate incident. Unfortunately looking now the information has gone, a link I had is broken so it has been removed from the public facing pages. It wasn't a trust that I audited but might be worth a look to see if it was picked up by whomever did do it - Sherwood Forest Hospitals

That one’s a cracker! Thanks I’ve got that one. There were 2 in the midlands but I’m sure there were others in each region

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TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/06/2025 17:46

@FarriersGirl and @Cantunseeit, thank you for those - I’ll do some digging!

Cantunseeit · 15/06/2025 17:44

Could you hit me up for a couple more Trusts if there are still any waiting to be allocated? Thank you

Cantunseeit · 15/06/2025 17:43

FarriersGirl · 15/06/2025 17:34

@KnottyAuty upthread there was an ask for any particularly egregious and potentially newsworthy examples. Months ago before we got going on the audit I read up some policies and guidelines on my local acute trust website and they had a zero tolerance of any patient potentially misgendering/harassing a trans staff member, describing it as a hate incident. Unfortunately looking now the information has gone, a link I had is broken so it has been removed from the public facing pages. It wasn't a trust that I audited but might be worth a look to see if it was picked up by whomever did do it - Sherwood Forest Hospitals

One of the mental health trusts in the East of England which I audited also included this

YellowRoom · 15/06/2025 17:36

Could I be allocated a trust pl

FarriersGirl · 15/06/2025 17:34

@KnottyAuty upthread there was an ask for any particularly egregious and potentially newsworthy examples. Months ago before we got going on the audit I read up some policies and guidelines on my local acute trust website and they had a zero tolerance of any patient potentially misgendering/harassing a trans staff member, describing it as a hate incident. Unfortunately looking now the information has gone, a link I had is broken so it has been removed from the public facing pages. It wasn't a trust that I audited but might be worth a look to see if it was picked up by whomever did do it - Sherwood Forest Hospitals

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/06/2025 16:39

@GreenAllOver, just finished reading the two Medium articles and they are Something Else. (Note to everyone else - they are worth a read.)

My gods and this was 2017/2018? And here we are, nearly 10 years down the line and still dealing with this insanity?

Nameychangington · 15/06/2025 16:39

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 15:13

For the timeline: 16th August 2010
”fanfare” announcement of single sex wards

good quote from Andrew Lansley:

”Patients should not suffer the indignity of being cared for in mixed sex accommodation. I am determined to put an end to this practice, where it is not clinically justified.

"In the future, NHS organisations will have clear standards, spelling out when they should report a breach.

"Where NHS organisations fail to meet this standard, we will let the public know that they have failed and we will strengthen the fines which may apply.

"Patients and members of the public will be able to see which services continue to allow patients to suffer the indignity of mixed sex accommodation."

My emphasis - promising transparency and the importance privacy, dignity or safety on NHS wards.

How times have changed!?

ETA https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10982566.amp

Edited

Yes Lansley was telling the plebs that
"Patients and members of the public will be able to see which services continue to allow patients to suffer the indignity of mixed sex accommodation." But before May I bet any Trust Director you'd ask would have said the same thing. It wasn't true then and it still isn't true now. My Trust still has, and always had, patient information leaflets saying 'you will be cared for in a single sex bay' although the policy (ahem, now quietly taken down from the intranet) always said transpeople could self ID where they were put.

Lansley knew full well that the policy was being badged as single sex but was actually single gender. It was pointed out to him at at least one Dept of Health meeting re the policy that the name was misleading, but he decreed they kept calling it single sex 'to aid public understanding '. Actually, to aid our misunderstanding that single sex wards weren't single sex wards.

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 16:15

@GreenAllOver I've popped the SoS dates on to the timeline

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KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 16:09

GreenAllOver · 15/06/2025 15:21

There’s a January 2009 speech saying much the same thing. Various different SofS’s for Health got a lot of mileage out of it as an issue.

Edited

Alan Johnson?

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FarriersGirl · 15/06/2025 15:57

Thanks for the link @GreenAllOver. I was particularly interested in the info near the end where the CQC had figures on the reported sexual assaults and rapes in mental health units. My DSis is now retired but spent 30 years as a mental health professional both on wards and in the community. In her experience such assaults were always recorded on Datix so presumably, somewhere there would be both local and national records? Does anyone know where? Would it be worth an FOI request?

GreenAllOver · 15/06/2025 15:21

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 15:13

For the timeline: 16th August 2010
”fanfare” announcement of single sex wards

good quote from Andrew Lansley:

”Patients should not suffer the indignity of being cared for in mixed sex accommodation. I am determined to put an end to this practice, where it is not clinically justified.

"In the future, NHS organisations will have clear standards, spelling out when they should report a breach.

"Where NHS organisations fail to meet this standard, we will let the public know that they have failed and we will strengthen the fines which may apply.

"Patients and members of the public will be able to see which services continue to allow patients to suffer the indignity of mixed sex accommodation."

My emphasis - promising transparency and the importance privacy, dignity or safety on NHS wards.

How times have changed!?

ETA https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10982566.amp

Edited

There’s a January 2009 speech saying much the same thing. Various different SofS’s for Health got a lot of mileage out of it as an issue.

KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 15:13

For the timeline: 16th August 2010
”fanfare” announcement of single sex wards

good quote from Andrew Lansley:

”Patients should not suffer the indignity of being cared for in mixed sex accommodation. I am determined to put an end to this practice, where it is not clinically justified.

"In the future, NHS organisations will have clear standards, spelling out when they should report a breach.

"Where NHS organisations fail to meet this standard, we will let the public know that they have failed and we will strengthen the fines which may apply.

"Patients and members of the public will be able to see which services continue to allow patients to suffer the indignity of mixed sex accommodation."

My emphasis - promising transparency and the importance privacy, dignity or safety on NHS wards.

How times have changed!?

ETA https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10982566.amp

OP posts:
KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 15:04

Health Secretaries over this policy period:

2 May 1997 – 11 October 1999 Frank Dobson
11 October 1999 – 13 June 2003 Alan Milburn
13 June 2003 – 6 May 2005 John Reid
6 May 2005 – 28 June 2007 Patricia Hewitt
28 June 2007 – 5 June 2009 Alan Johnson
5 June 2009 – 11 May 2010 Andy Milburn
12 May 2010 – 4 September 2012 Andrew Lansley
4 September 2012 – 9 July 2018 Jeremy Hunt

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KnottyAuty · 15/06/2025 14:51

@GreenAllOver id also forgotten to read that. How incredible that PfC were consulted and women not!? Amazing find!

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TwoLoonsAndASprout · 15/06/2025 12:40

@GreenAllOver, oh I’m glad you spotted that thread with the link to the “let’s go back” thread - I was going to point it out to you but got waylaid.

GreenAllOver · 15/06/2025 12:38

I’ve just (thanks to another thread) found some excellent research on the history of sex and gender in the NHS. I’ll add it in to the jotform when I get time, but for now here’s the link:
https://medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

And there’s also a lot of things I want to follow up from this thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007?reply=83696520
For instance, I had no idea that GIRES was founded as the charitable (ie non political) arm of Press for Change. There’s also a lot on there on related issues, like the definition of ‘trans’ in law, and the suicide statistics.

If PencilsInSpace is still around and reading, her posts on that thread were fantastic, she’s clearly super knowledgable and it would be great if she was able to read this thread and add anything that she knows. She pointed out that women weren’t consulted on changes to the Sex Discrimination Act in 1999, while Press for Change were! Which reminded me, I found some Dept of Health guidance on gender and access to services written by the Men’s Health Forum, with no matching guidance by a women’s health group.

Sex, Gender & the NHS

Part 1: The “Single-Sex Hospital Wards” that have always been a lie

https://medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

Opinionpolecat · 14/06/2025 20:40

SuppoRTT covers all of England, it’s funded by Health Education England. I’m not sure what will happen to it now HEE is going.

Blackmetallic · 14/06/2025 17:34

KnottyAuty · 14/06/2025 12:50

The special leave thing could be interesting. We would need to get comparisons with the other policies to make it meaningful. Maybe a FOI needed now to get results back in a month?

I can't speak for all professions within the NHS, or all geographical areas, but the North West has what can be a very generous & wide-ranging return to work support programme called SuppoRTT for medical/dental professionals in training programmes, it covers return from maternity/parental leave along with many other reasons for absence/being new to the NHS etc.
SuppoRTT

Supported Return to Training (SuppoRTT) | Health Education North West

https://www.nwpgmd.nhs.uk/supported-return-to-training

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 14/06/2025 16:14

GreenAllOver · 14/06/2025 16:10

I hadn’t specificallly known about GIRES’s involvement, but I have been keeping half an eye out for the conflation of GIRES and DSD/intersex, and haven’t spotted it in the guidance I’ve seen.

There’s a huge amount of content, from what I’ve uploaded to the jotform on Dept of Health guidance and BeLemonHam’s input on equality guidance. I think there’s probably enough for someone to go through and audit development of policy around sex/gender as it relates to:

  • Children and young people, especially Gillick competence (and lack of it not being a barrier to overruling parents’ wishes)
  • Older people (especially those with dementia or delirium)
  • People with mental health problems, especially those on secure (ie locked, can’t leave) wards
  • Consideration (or lack of consideration) for people who are not trans and an attempt to balance rights
  • Going ‘beyond the law’ or giving advice (eg best practice examples) which encourage readers to believe that self ID is the law
  • Positive discrimination in favour of trans employees (eg in terms of how medical leave for transition is treated, compared to comparable reasons for medical leave)
  • Privacy and dignity, and how the right to privacy about a GRC has been developed, argued and used. There’s a wider issue about using Government guidance to encourage individuals to take legal action against public bodies.
  • The legal and ethical status of Dept of Health guidance which was written by interest groups such as GIRES. With follow up questions about whether this avoided the usual civil service checks and balances (including legal checks) and the Ministerial approval process, which is necessary for democratic accountability (Nolan principles).

Thank you for that! I will do some digging…

GreenAllOver · 14/06/2025 16:10

I hadn’t specificallly known about GIRES’s involvement, but I have been keeping half an eye out for the conflation of GIRES and DSD/intersex, and haven’t spotted it in the guidance I’ve seen.

There’s a huge amount of content, from what I’ve uploaded to the jotform on Dept of Health guidance and BeLemonHam’s input on equality guidance. I think there’s probably enough for someone to go through and audit development of policy around sex/gender as it relates to:

  • Children and young people, especially Gillick competence (and lack of it not being a barrier to overruling parents’ wishes)
  • Older people (especially those with dementia or delirium)
  • People with mental health problems, especially those on secure (ie locked, can’t leave) wards
  • Consideration (or lack of consideration) for people who are not trans and an attempt to balance rights
  • Going ‘beyond the law’ or giving advice (eg best practice examples) which encourage readers to believe that self ID is the law
  • Positive discrimination in favour of trans employees (eg in terms of how medical leave for transition is treated, compared to comparable reasons for medical leave)
  • Privacy and dignity, and how the right to privacy about a GRC has been developed, argued and used. There’s a wider issue about using Government guidance to encourage individuals to take legal action against public bodies.
  • The legal and ethical status of Dept of Health guidance which was written by interest groups such as GIRES. With follow up questions about whether this avoided the usual civil service checks and balances (including legal checks) and the Ministerial approval process, which is necessary for democratic accountability (Nolan principles).
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