Page 27 | NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3

KnottyAuty · 2025-06-12T19:57:18+00:00

*NHS Policy Audit - working party -Thread #3* *Original thread #1 here: * *[[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party?page=1]]* *Thread #2:* *[[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5322494-nhs-policy-audit-working-party-thread-2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5322494-nhs-policy-audit-working-party-thread-2]]* *This is a thread about “keeping the receipts” on NHS Policies prior to the Supreme Court ruling on 16th April 2025.* *Our working theory is that there were no single sex spaces for NHS Staff or Patients in the entire country before that date, having all been removed by stealth.* *We are aiming to prove this by auditing websites and policies for all the UK trusts and using the results to raise public awareness. * *As well as recording what has happened historically, the information will form a baseline so we can check which Trusts comply or defy the judgement in due course...* *We are working around the country region by region. If you fancy getting involved in a bit of grassroots feminism then please do join in to help!? * *Each trust takes about an hour to research and you can upload online without giving any personal details away. Comment below and we can give you the link to an online survey - it changes for each region.* *Thanks soooo much to all the vipers who have helped so far and @twoloons for doing a great job with the thread wrangling!*

FarriersGirl · 19/06/2025 15:58

Glad you are OK @TwoLoonsAndASprout
A bit of overview for you and @KnottyAuty Upthread I said I would do the 3 community health organisations that are not NHS. I have done them now and they are marked up on the jotform as not NHS. The forms are rather sparse, they are mainly community healthcare providers and don't do a lot of inpatient care anyway. All 3 have some EDI info that I have read, but they are not subject to FOI requests as they are private companies.
I have had a good dig for any Stonewall links etc and found nothing. My impression is that all 3 are quite business like and focused on the job they do. All 3 are Good in CQC land and they all seem to be rainbow free zones.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 14:43

YellowRoom · 19/06/2025 14:39

Firsly, hope you're doing okay. And secondly, it was a decommissioned ambulance.

Show quote history

Firstly, doing much better now thank you!

And secondly, my point still stands 🤣

YellowRoom · 19/06/2025 14:39

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 13:49

@YellowRoom, I recently had the pleasure of being transported via ambulance to my local NHS A&E. If the paramedics had rocked up in a Pride ambulance, I can tell you I'd have driven myself there.

Firsly, hope you're doing okay. And secondly, it was a decommissioned ambulance.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 19/06/2025 13:49

@YellowRoom, I recently had the pleasure of being transported via ambulance to my local NHS A&E. If the paramedics had rocked up in a Pride ambulance, I can tell you I'd have driven myself there.

FarriersGirl · 19/06/2025 13:44

@YellowRoom nothing meaningful seems to sink in does it? Thank you for being so diligent with these. Next one for your delectation is University Hospitals Sussex!

YellowRoom · 19/06/2025 12:35

I've submitted South Central Ambulance

Couldn't find policies related to this.

Supreme Court statement - I've italicised a bit that made me laugh, must have come as a real shock for these health care professionals.
'On 16 April 2025, the UK Supreme Court made a ruling to define “women” as biologically born females. This will come as difficult news for many, especially our trans colleagues and those who support inclusion and equality in all its forms. It’s a ruling that feels like a setback for the values we hold dear – diversity, respect, and the right for every person to be recognised for who they are. It is a decision that impacts on many NHS values not least the NHS People plan, and NHS People Promise that state a core value of “belonging in the NHS”, with a particular focus on tackling discrimination where all are welcome, celebrating diversity in all its forms.
At SCAS, we want to make it clear, this decision does not change our unwavering commitment to our trans colleagues, patients, and communities. You are seen, respected, and valued. Your identity is valid, and your place within our organisation is not defined by a narrow legal ruling, but by your humanity and the contributions you make every day...'

A Trust employee who chairs the SCAS LGBT Network is also Deputy Chair to the National Ambulance LGBT Network - on committee with Steph Meech of Trans Paramedic poetry fame.

Picture of Pride ambulance on Trust homepage
'This year’s event saw the inaugural appearance of the SCAS LGBT+ and staff networks pride vehicle, which was kindly sponsored by the SCAS Charity and our union colleagues across Unite, Unison, GMB and the NMC.
This vehicle has been designed thanks to the kind donations of sponsorship from our Union colleagues Unite, Unison, GMB and NMC...' (this is what they're spending subs on).

I'll take another Trust if there's one going pl @FarriersGirl

Original poster

KnottyAuty · 18/06/2025 23:47

Blackmetallic · 18/06/2025 23:35

Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care Partnership Trust - I'm about to submit it, there was very little information available on their website so a bit of digging was needed. Policies were only available through FoI but I thought parts of their Trans Equality in the Workplace Policy were worth flagging up on here: (bold type added by me)

5.6 Supporting trans employees and service users
5.6.1 Trans employees and service users must be treated with civility, dignity and respect with consideration of the following:
• Pronouns – ensure you use the correct pronoun for the individual e.g. he/she/they/ze
– this list is not exhaustive. Ask the individual how they would like to be addressed.
• Religion or belief – no-one should use their particular religious beliefs or cultural views about trans people to refuse to treat, work with or share facilities with a person who is trans.
• Toilets and changing facilities – trans people should not be prevented from having access to the facilities that affirms their gender identity. Gender neutral facilities may be available as an alternative for any person whether trans or not, who do not wish to share with others. This may be especially important for some people who identify as either men or women or identify as both and would be uncomfortable entering facilities designated ‘ladies’ or ‘gents’.

6.6 Discriminatory practice
6.6.1 Trans people may experience some or all of the following examples of discriminatory
practice:
• People refusing to associate with or ignoring them because of their trans status.
• Not being addressed in their affirmed gender or not having their new name used.
• Having their personal life and relations probed into.
• Having malicious gossip spread about them.
• Having confidential information relating to their trans status released without their approval.
• Having confidential information relating to their trans status released by someone they have disclosed to.
• Not being allowed to use facilities that are appropriate to the gender in which they live.
• Being treated less favorably than others in regard to sickness or other absences.
• Being refused access to services, facilities or premises due to prejudice from employees or other service users.
• Being verbally abused or physically assaulted because of their trans status.
• People refusing to associate with or ignoring them because of their religion, belief or cultural views.
6.6.2 As an employer and deliverer of care for trans people, KMPT should ensure that health and life experience are not diminished but rather enhanced through celebrating and embracing diversity.

4.2.3 Once a full GRC is issued to a person, their legal sex/ gender henceforth becomes for all purposes their acquired gender – including for marriage and civil partnerships purposes and for employment in posts where a Genuine Occupational Qualification to be a particular sex/gender applies

4.2.5 They do not need to show a GRC in order to change their day to day documentation or to use the toilet facilities of their acquired gender.

Religion or belief – no-one should use their particular religious beliefs or cultural views about trans people to refuse to treat, work with or share facilities with a person who is trans.

So close but so unlawful!
Clearly if you refuse to sit in the canteen with your trans colleague because they are trans then that is not OK. However that is completely different to not wanting to share a legally protected single sex space with someone of the opposite sex - whether you are male or female the same applies.

Thanks for flagging this example. We have seen a few similar but it is useful as a reminder of how very one-sided and unbalanced many of these policies are. Good intentions gone very wrong

OP posts:

Original poster

KnottyAuty · 18/06/2025 23:43

FarriersGirl · 18/06/2025 18:17

We will get a link sent out on the DM by @KnottyAuty and you can have University Hospital Southampton NHS Trust. The instructions are embedded in the form. Let me know if you get stuck.

Show quote history

DM sent with your link @redmugbluemug
Thank you!

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Blackmetallic · 18/06/2025 23:35

Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care Partnership Trust - I'm about to submit it, there was very little information available on their website so a bit of digging was needed. Policies were only available through FoI but I thought parts of their Trans Equality in the Workplace Policy were worth flagging up on here: (bold type added by me)

5.6 Supporting trans employees and service users
5.6.1 Trans employees and service users must be treated with civility, dignity and respect with consideration of the following:
• Pronouns – ensure you use the correct pronoun for the individual e.g. he/she/they/ze
– this list is not exhaustive. Ask the individual how they would like to be addressed.
• Religion or belief – no-one should use their particular religious beliefs or cultural views about trans people to refuse to treat, work with or share facilities with a person who is trans.
• Toilets and changing facilities – trans people should not be prevented from having access to the facilities that affirms their gender identity. Gender neutral facilities may be available as an alternative for any person whether trans or not, who do not wish to share with others. This may be especially important for some people who identify as either men or women or identify as both and would be uncomfortable entering facilities designated ‘ladies’ or ‘gents’.

6.6 Discriminatory practice
6.6.1 Trans people may experience some or all of the following examples of discriminatory
practice:
• People refusing to associate with or ignoring them because of their trans status.
• Not being addressed in their affirmed gender or not having their new name used.
• Having their personal life and relations probed into.
• Having malicious gossip spread about them.
• Having confidential information relating to their trans status released without their approval.
• Having confidential information relating to their trans status released by someone they have disclosed to.
• Not being allowed to use facilities that are appropriate to the gender in which they live.
• Being treated less favorably than others in regard to sickness or other absences.
• Being refused access to services, facilities or premises due to prejudice from employees or other service users.
• Being verbally abused or physically assaulted because of their trans status.
• People refusing to associate with or ignoring them because of their religion, belief or cultural views.
6.6.2 As an employer and deliverer of care for trans people, KMPT should ensure that health and life experience are not diminished but rather enhanced through celebrating and embracing diversity.

4.2.3 Once a full GRC is issued to a person, their legal sex/ gender henceforth becomes for all purposes their acquired gender – including for marriage and civil partnerships purposes and for employment in posts where a Genuine Occupational Qualification to be a particular sex/gender applies

4.2.5 They do not need to show a GRC in order to change their day to day documentation or to use the toilet facilities of their acquired gender.

FarriersGirl · 18/06/2025 18:17

redmugbluemug · 18/06/2025 09:09

@KnottyAuty Very happy to help with the South East of England!

We will get a link sent out on the DM by @KnottyAuty and you can have University Hospital Southampton NHS Trust. The instructions are embedded in the form. Let me know if you get stuck.

FarriersGirl · 18/06/2025 16:49

Its time for an update - we are doing really well on a big region. If anyone is struggling with their allocated trust please let me know and I can reallocate if needed - we are all busy people!

Acute trusts in the South East region

Ashford and St Peter’s Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust -Cantunseeit
Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust - Theeyeballsinthesky
East Kent Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Needmoretinfoil
East Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust - Yellowroom
Frimley Health NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Hampshire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
Isle of Wight NHS Trust - Cantunseeit
Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust - socialdilemma
Medway NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
Oxford University Hospitals NHS Trust - thenoisiestteramgant
Portsmouth Hospitals University NHS Trust - bluebootsgreenboots
Queen Victoria Hospital NHS Foundation Trust - cantunseeit
Royal Berkshire Hospital NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
Royal Surrey County Hospital NHS Foundation Trust - cantunseeit
Surrey and Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust - yellowroom
University Hospital Southampton NHS Foundation Trust
University Hospitals Sussex NHS Foundation Trust

Community and mental health trusts in the South East region

Berkshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust - withsilverbells
Central Surrey Health - FarriersGirl
First Community Health and Care - FarriersGirl
Kent Community Health NHS Foundation Trust - Cantunseeit
Kent and Medway NHS and Social Care Partnership Trust - Blackmetallic
Medway Community Healthcare - FarriersGirl
Oxford Health NHS Foundation Trust - cantunseeit
Solent NHS Trust - FarriersGirl
Southern Health NHS Foundation Trust -Mipe
Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu
Sussex Community NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu
Sussex Partnership NHS Foundation Trust - teawamutu

Ambulance trusts in the South East region

South East Coast Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust - Yellowroom
South Central Ambulance Service NHS Foundation Trust - yellowroom

FarriersGirl · 18/06/2025 09:38

YellowRoom · 18/06/2025 09:18

Good morning @FarriersGirl - pl could you allocate me a trust

Good morning - how about the other ambulance trust, South Central?

YellowRoom · 18/06/2025 09:18

Good morning @FarriersGirl - pl could you allocate me a trust

redmugbluemug · 18/06/2025 09:09

@KnottyAuty Very happy to help with the South East of England!

FarriersGirl · 18/06/2025 07:37

Morning @Mipe could you have a go at Southern Health Foundation Trust. The instructions are all on the form on the link you have been sent. Thank you!

RayonSunrise · 17/06/2025 18:28

KnottyAuty · 17/06/2025 17:27

Thanks that is useful because using the terms transvestite and transexual actually make the conversations with people much clearer - and now we can say that this is NHS approved vocab ....

Show quote history

Wow. That’s… extremely clear, isn’t it?

Original poster

KnottyAuty · 17/06/2025 18:16

redmugbluemug · 17/06/2025 17:07

Ah, sorry! Just spotted the thread and wanted to respond whilst I had a spare moment. I can see you've all been working very hard on this.

Happy to help with Wales if this would be useful.

Thanks so much for the offer - we can only cope with one region at a time to make things manageable behind the scenes. So we will get to Wales as soon as Ermine's FOIs are finished - she is having a torrid time with them as very few have responded so far unfortunately! In the meantime we would love your help on the South East of England if you are up for it?!

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Original poster

KnottyAuty · 17/06/2025 18:00

Mipe · 17/06/2025 17:06

@KnottyAuty and @FarriersGirl I would love to help as well! I’m in the NorthWest but happy to look at any area you need.

Edited

Brilliant! I shall pop you over the Jotform link (which includes instructions) and I am sure @FarriersGirl will be along soon to allocate you a trust. The auditors are currently scouring the South East while I flounder in their wake tidying up the findings and plugging gaps! Thanks for offering to help

OP posts:

Original poster

KnottyAuty · 17/06/2025 17:35

redmugbluemug · 17/06/2025 16:48

Just seen this thread, and hope the following are useful . . .
West London NHS Trust policy (freely available).

I'd draw your attention to the 'Case Example' on page 14 / 40, and the 'Scenario' on Page 16 / 40.

T7 Trans Policy How to care for the needs of our patients.pdf

This is the trust which includes Broadmoor. Eye opening.

OP posts:

Original poster

KnottyAuty · 17/06/2025 17:27

Cantunseeit · 17/06/2025 13:50

Saying the quiet parts out loud at Oxford Health NHS Foundation Trust:

"Trans people, who may be male or female of any age, are those people who live all of the time, or part of the time in a way which is not usually associated with the gender which they were assigned at birth. ‘Trans’ is an umbrella term which includes those people who live or wish to live full time in their preferred gender (transsexual people) and those people who live part of the time or on
special occasions for reasons of comfort or sexual pleasure (sometimes called transvestites). Transsexual people sometimes have hormones and surgery to make their bodies more congruent with their internal sense of gender."

Thanks that is useful because using the terms transvestite and transexual actually make the conversations with people much clearer - and now we can say that this is NHS approved vocab ....

OP posts:

redmugbluemug · 17/06/2025 17:07

Ah, sorry! Just spotted the thread and wanted to respond whilst I had a spare moment. I can see you've all been working very hard on this.

Happy to help with Wales if this would be useful.

Mipe · 17/06/2025 17:06

@KnottyAuty and @FarriersGirl I would love to help as well! I’m in the NorthWest but happy to look at any area you need.

FarriersGirl · 17/06/2025 17:01

redmugbluemug · 17/06/2025 16:53

Struggling to link it, but I also have the Equality Impact Assessment for West London NHS Trust and the protected characteristic of ‘Sex’ has been replaced with ‘Gender' and it states that the above policy (i.e. self-ID) will have a positive effect on the protected characteristic of ‘sex’ because of:

‘Increased awareness of the wider spectrum of Trans patients within policy’.

The disregard for female service users is so upsetting.

Thank you we have already covered all the London Trusts so @KnottyAuty will have this tucked away in her database I'm sure. If you are interested have a closer look at the thread, we are working our way through all of England having completed Scotland and hoping to do Wales as well. Always room for another on the team!

FarriersGirl · 17/06/2025 16:57

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 17/06/2025 15:53

@GreenAllOver, re Harman and the PIE scandal. I’ve always been very confused by that, and how anyone, even the most liberal, would think that it was an acceptable stance to take. However, because of another thread on here, I happened to go back and re-read about the German experiment that placed foster children with paedophiles, and there was a certain amount of background explanation for how this came to be seen as ok.

Basically, the take was that, pre-WWII, Germany had such an antiquated view on sex and sexuality, that anything remotely non-vanilla, or not between married couples, or not for procreation purposes, was seen as deviant. And that that repressed attitude was one of the things that led to Naziism (not saying I agree with this thesis, just that it’s what was put forward at the time). Therefore post-WWII, there was a push to the other extreme — everything should now be out in the open and explored and made “normal,” including things that should probably have come under the heading of paraphilia or fetish.

I’m certain that there were bad faith actors working out ways to take advantage of this, but if I squint, and look sideways at it, I can sort of see why some people, who just didn’t want to be on the wrong side of history, might have gone along with things beyond a point where they could (visibly) back out without looking like traitors to the cause.

I have recently listened to 'In dark corners' on BBC sounds. This is an investigation into PIE but some of the discussion reminded me of the TRA movement and the issues around safeguarding are also similar.

redmugbluemug · 17/06/2025 16:53

Struggling to link it, but I also have the Equality Impact Assessment for West London NHS Trust and the protected characteristic of ‘Sex’ has been replaced with ‘Gender' and it states that the above policy (i.e. self-ID) will have a positive effect on the protected characteristic of ‘sex’ because of:

‘Increased awareness of the wider spectrum of Trans patients within policy’.

The disregard for female service users is so upsetting.