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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sibling in law

989 replies

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

OP posts:
SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 15:01

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 14:54

@SleeplessInWherever

I think this thread has confirmed identity, outside of sex, even more for me.

So what does identity consist of? What does the identity of woman consist in (and particularly, as distinctly not man), outside of biology/sex?

I appreciate that this one of the things that people find most ambiguous and therefore difficult, but my identity isn’t linked exclusively to sex.

I’m female because of biology. I’m a woman because of my internal sense of self, which is linked to my experiences, relationships, place in the world I specifically live in, the influences in that world. I cannot explain for anyone what that’s meant to (or not meant to) feel like for them, because I’m not you. But all of those things are far more important to me than biology.

For example, I’m haven’t achieved anything because of or in spite of my sex. But I have achieved things in spite of my background. That matters more to me.

I think it’s quite clear from threads like this one that sharing biology with some people isn’t enough to place you in a “group” with them. Certainly not socially. There are many here I share biology with but identify with in absolutely no other way whatsoever, and I would actually prefer to not share physical spaces with them over the people who they think are the issue.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 15:01

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 15:01

Anyone want to bother to quote JK Rowling to Boy George from the other day?

That.

What did she say?

I'm not on Twatter.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 15:01

Anyone want to bother to quote JK Rowling to Boy George from the other day?

That.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 14:58

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 14:51

You tried really hard to not mention JK Rowling there.

She’s criticised because she’s stepping out of her actual ivory tower, while you tell people who don’t live in one that they’re privileged. Telling me I’m privileged while you’re being represented from a woman in a mansion/on a yacht, wherever. Now that’s privilege. Clearly just a form of privilege you’re happy to accept.

She may have lived in your world, she doesn’t now. Politicians aren’t “of the people,” and neither is she.

I think this thread has confirmed identity, outside of sex, even more for me. We may have biology in common, but there is no other common ground here. I would prefer to identify with people who I have more in common with than biology, because if there’s one thing that’s become evident here it’s that that’s not enough.

I watched you yesterday repeatedly make shitty comments about education levels, intelligence. Laughing faces whenever someone told me off in a way you liked. You were a back patter, if you will. If this was a playground, you’d have been one of those in the circle of kids calling for a fight.

You think it’s not noticeable? That people can’t see through it, and recognise an obvious attempt to bother someone enough that they take their views elsewhere? The frustration might be that it hasn’t worked.

But identity is personal.

Biology is not. It just is.

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 14:54

@SleeplessInWherever

I think this thread has confirmed identity, outside of sex, even more for me.

So what does identity consist of? What does the identity of woman consist in (and particularly, as distinctly not man), outside of biology/sex?

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 14:51

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 14:07

I’m sorry you feel victimised by your biology, however despite losing absolutely no sleep about it, that’s not an excuse to victimise other people.

I'm not victimising anyone.

I'm saying that there has been some complete and utter nonsense on this thread, which is representative of the overly intellectualising on the subject which demonstrates the sheer level of privilege and out of touchness with reality which is fuelling frustration. All it does is just drive the point home that sex matters and that anyone who says it doesn't fundamentally doesn't get the problems to begin and are close minded to considering problems because it's easier to dismiss them as somehow not real / imagined. And then when this is said the response is a flounce and 'look how victimised I am' from the over privileged quarters. Which only adds to a vicious circle of making these intellectuals (who are overly keen to use and advertise their supposed academic authority on the subject) look even more out of touch. The legal illiteracy that accompanies it, is even more baffling in this context because it relies on going from a supposedly intellectual position to one that's incoherent, unworkable and makes no sense because 'be kind'. Meanwhile the very people most affected by gender ID - vulnerable women and children aren't treated kindly, concerns about them are dismissed as irrelevant and sex is redefined as a social construction!

You are just an example of the problem. It's actually NOT about you but a pattern of this same old crap where we are told we don't matter, how we feel doesn't matter and our concerns don't matter, but the only Very Important People are men and the intellectual class that buy into it.

We are so over this. There's lots of intellectual people who are educated in many other areas who can see the glaringly obvious issues on display and the problems with virtue signalling.

Virtue signalling has a long and glorious history amongst the privileged and ways in which language removes power from the masses.

We could talk about the Church and the choices of language within England and how it created barriers. Latin was the language of the church whilst French was the language of the landed well off. Old English was the peasant language. Not knowing the other languages was yet another way to keep power. It was actively discouraged and prevented from translation to English so that the church could 'control access to god'. Attempts to do so in various other languages resulted in ex-communication.

We could talk about art history and how virtue was encoded into painting which only the educated could understand thus creating a hierarchy and status around art and art creation. This was virtue signalling in perhaps it's most literal sense.

What we see happening today really isn't new. It's something of a rehashing of this and a demonstration of one group trying to impose their dominance over another. Except today we have greater ability to identify this and hold people doing it to account. The appeals to authority and then after having said 'i am the authority on this because I hold greater status' followed by a 'I'm so hard done by and such a victim of unfairness' don't really wash precisely because there's been this attempt to disempower and discredit anyone saying 'hang on a second this is utter nonsense, can you please address these various issues relating to exploitation and material reality we have lived experience of which you, from your ivory tower, are so keen to say don't exist'.

You don't get to play the 'im the expert and authority on this subject' card followed by the 'im the poor victim' card because either you have higher level status we don't have for which you have a degree of accountability and responsibility to deal with as part of that status OR you are a poor, powerless, vulnerable individual who has a lack of status in debates and is being unfairly criticised. It can not be bothered by the nature of the beast.

The fact you try not to be tied to this point of privilege really is the most telling point of all on this thread.

There a whole bunch of educated and non educated women (who are still highly informed) who have been deliberately shut out or marginalised on conversations by those who hold power and status. They've been told their experience and knowledge and concerns are not important and they aren't qualified to comment. That's not going to continue. It's an abuse of power and status and it's identifiable.

This is also why a certain woman who does now, in her older years, have power and status is just so hated because she's helped other women and legitimised their concerns through the system itself. Because she holds power to account through the democratic channels by using the pillars of liberalism rather than the tools of authoritarians (like language and the church and symbolism in art to virtue signal and retain status) to marginalised and disempower.

Thing is, this is 2025. We know this shit.

You tried really hard to not mention JK Rowling there.

She’s criticised because she’s stepping out of her actual ivory tower, while you tell people who don’t live in one that they’re privileged. Telling me I’m privileged while you’re being represented from a woman in a mansion/on a yacht, wherever. Now that’s privilege. Clearly just a form of privilege you’re happy to accept.

She may have lived in your world, she doesn’t now. Politicians aren’t “of the people,” and neither is she.

I think this thread has confirmed identity, outside of sex, even more for me. We may have biology in common, but there is no other common ground here. I would prefer to identify with people who I have more in common with than biology, because if there’s one thing that’s become evident here it’s that that’s not enough.

I watched you yesterday repeatedly make shitty comments about education levels, intelligence. Laughing faces whenever someone told me off in a way you liked. You were a back patter, if you will. If this was a playground, you’d have been one of those in the circle of kids calling for a fight.

You think it’s not noticeable? That people can’t see through it, and recognise an obvious attempt to bother someone enough that they take their views elsewhere? The frustration might be that it hasn’t worked.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 14:33

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 14:00

That’s fair enough, however I’d point out that doesn’t excuse the outward attempt of some to victimise someone.

Whether it works or not doesn’t excuse the behaviour to begin with.

No, it doesn't, if that's what they were intending. But if you don't bite, they won't carry on.

TheKeatingFive · 17/06/2025 14:22

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 14:00

That’s fair enough, however I’d point out that doesn’t excuse the outward attempt of some to victimise someone.

Whether it works or not doesn’t excuse the behaviour to begin with.

Who is being victimised?

How?

swimsong · 17/06/2025 14:18

AidaP · 12/06/2025 19:10

No, that's crossdressing.

But I am not here to educate transphobia central, just offering help to OP who seems to genuinely want to help and learn. So... Bye, keep arguing against DSM, Human Rights, UK law and everything else.

Stonewall included cross-dressers under the trans umbrella though. I think they're regarded as being 'on a journey'. Do you agree that was a mistake? Over years and years of socialising in the pubs, clubs and cafes around Manchester's Canal Street, the primary journey I saw was all about exploring sexual fetishism.

swimsong · 17/06/2025 14:07

AidaP · 12/06/2025 19:07

You mean calling transgender people as "men in dresses" is not hate?

Wild take. But very fitting for this place. I guess if you redefine hate enough, you can live in it all the time and not even know it.

No that's not hate, it's simply describing what you see. The truth is everyone's faking the belief that anyone can change sex - including trans people, except for the very naive young transtrenders. It's all an indulgence and a politeness.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 14:07

I’m sorry you feel victimised by your biology, however despite losing absolutely no sleep about it, that’s not an excuse to victimise other people.

I'm not victimising anyone.

I'm saying that there has been some complete and utter nonsense on this thread, which is representative of the overly intellectualising on the subject which demonstrates the sheer level of privilege and out of touchness with reality which is fuelling frustration. All it does is just drive the point home that sex matters and that anyone who says it doesn't fundamentally doesn't get the problems to begin and are close minded to considering problems because it's easier to dismiss them as somehow not real / imagined. And then when this is said the response is a flounce and 'look how victimised I am' from the over privileged quarters. Which only adds to a vicious circle of making these intellectuals (who are overly keen to use and advertise their supposed academic authority on the subject) look even more out of touch. The legal illiteracy that accompanies it, is even more baffling in this context because it relies on going from a supposedly intellectual position to one that's incoherent, unworkable and makes no sense because 'be kind'. Meanwhile the very people most affected by gender ID - vulnerable women and children aren't treated kindly, concerns about them are dismissed as irrelevant and sex is redefined as a social construction!

You are just an example of the problem. It's actually NOT about you but a pattern of this same old crap where we are told we don't matter, how we feel doesn't matter and our concerns don't matter, but the only Very Important People are men and the intellectual class that buy into it.

We are so over this. There's lots of intellectual people who are educated in many other areas who can see the glaringly obvious issues on display and the problems with virtue signalling.

Virtue signalling has a long and glorious history amongst the privileged and ways in which language removes power from the masses.

We could talk about the Church and the choices of language within England and how it created barriers. Latin was the language of the church whilst French was the language of the landed well off. Old English was the peasant language. Not knowing the other languages was yet another way to keep power. It was actively discouraged and prevented from translation to English so that the church could 'control access to god'. Attempts to do so in various other languages resulted in ex-communication.

We could talk about art history and how virtue was encoded into painting which only the educated could understand thus creating a hierarchy and status around art and art creation. This was virtue signalling in perhaps it's most literal sense.

What we see happening today really isn't new. It's something of a rehashing of this and a demonstration of one group trying to impose their dominance over another. Except today we have greater ability to identify this and hold people doing it to account. The appeals to authority and then after having said 'i am the authority on this because I hold greater status' followed by a 'I'm so hard done by and such a victim of unfairness' don't really wash precisely because there's been this attempt to disempower and discredit anyone saying 'hang on a second this is utter nonsense, can you please address these various issues relating to exploitation and material reality we have lived experience of which you, from your ivory tower, are so keen to say don't exist'.

You don't get to play the 'im the expert and authority on this subject' card followed by the 'im the poor victim' card because either you have higher level status we don't have for which you have a degree of accountability and responsibility to deal with as part of that status OR you are a poor, powerless, vulnerable individual who has a lack of status in debates and is being unfairly criticised. It can not be bothered by the nature of the beast.

The fact you try not to be tied to this point of privilege really is the most telling point of all on this thread.

There a whole bunch of educated and non educated women (who are still highly informed) who have been deliberately shut out or marginalised on conversations by those who hold power and status. They've been told their experience and knowledge and concerns are not important and they aren't qualified to comment. That's not going to continue. It's an abuse of power and status and it's identifiable.

This is also why a certain woman who does now, in her older years, have power and status is just so hated because she's helped other women and legitimised their concerns through the system itself. Because she holds power to account through the democratic channels by using the pillars of liberalism rather than the tools of authoritarians (like language and the church and symbolism in art to virtue signal and retain status) to marginalised and disempower.

Thing is, this is 2025. We know this shit.

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 14:05

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 14:02

Yes, I have gathered that if, as a biological female, you dare to have a different opinion, some people really don’t like it.

It’s not you having a different opinion; it’s that the opinion doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. If you don’t want it debated and scrutinised, why are you posting here?

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 14:04

Disagreement and debate are not the same as victimisation!

What are you the victim of?

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 14:02

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 13:26

Whatever the reason (and back in the day a lot of straightforward men’s right’s activists used to frequent this board) if you suggest on the feminist board that women’s rights don’t need protection, you are going to get strong push back,

Similarly suggesting ‘dogs should never be off lead’ on the dog owner’s board and ‘women shouldn’t breastfeed in public’. On the breast feeding board.

Yes, I have gathered that if, as a biological female, you dare to have a different opinion, some people really don’t like it.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 14:00

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 13:53

But you have a choice to engage with them, or to look through the people who quoted it mentioned you and engage in an actual debate that might mean something.

You chose to feel victimised.

That’s fair enough, however I’d point out that doesn’t excuse the outward attempt of some to victimise someone.

Whether it works or not doesn’t excuse the behaviour to begin with.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 13:53

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 13:32

Genuinely, I’m not sure I saw them.

I think honestly that when so many people respond, you’re always going to see and reply to the most “offensive.” Of which there are unfortunately many.

But you have a choice to engage with them, or to look through the people who quoted it mentioned you and engage in an actual debate that might mean something.

You chose to feel victimised.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 13:32

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 13:29

I also asked you a couple of questions, in good faith, and you ignored those.

I saw you engage only with people who I think you thought you could outsmart, or you thought were "attacking" you. Haven't seen you answer any genuine questions.

If you want a proper debate, ignore those you think are "attacking" and engage with those who are asking questions and trying to understand.

Genuinely, I’m not sure I saw them.

I think honestly that when so many people respond, you’re always going to see and reply to the most “offensive.” Of which there are unfortunately many.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 13:29

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 13:21

Some do post in good faith as you put it, others don’t.

I saw a different thread last night where a regular poster here said “go to this thread where we debated (took the piss out of) this exact thing.” Admitted that sometimes that’s the motive.

There are posters here who will ask the same question, that has been answered, repeatedly and then say they’re in good faith. They’re not, are they.

I also genuinely believe that there are some who are so incensed by a view that isn’t either GC or the just not the same as theirs, that they react passionately, and then with irritation.

The same groups of people respond in quick succession, making the exact same points, and then back pat each other about how intentionally “piss taking” they’ve been toward someone. “We’ve been collectively rude, aren’t we hilarious, good one fellow feminist 😂👏🏻” And then have the audacity to talk about cults?

So transparent.

I also asked you a couple of questions, in good faith, and you ignored those.

I saw you engage only with people who I think you thought you could outsmart, or you thought were "attacking" you. Haven't seen you answer any genuine questions.

If you want a proper debate, ignore those you think are "attacking" and engage with those who are asking questions and trying to understand.

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 13:26

Whatever the reason (and back in the day a lot of straightforward men’s right’s activists used to frequent this board) if you suggest on the feminist board that women’s rights don’t need protection, you are going to get strong push back,

Similarly suggesting ‘dogs should never be off lead’ on the dog owner’s board and ‘women shouldn’t breastfeed in public’. On the breast feeding board.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 13:21

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 13:11

This is just nonsense - for example, I don’t know anyone else on this thread and there’s no “group” and no “targeted” anything. I have been trying to engage with the actual posts you’ve posted - and it’s YOU who have sought to “group” people together, explicitly writing about “the GC community” (what community?)

Coming on to a thread on an internet forum specifically designed for debate then accusing posters who debate with your posts of targeting and attacking you is a victim mentality of the highest order. It’s also you, not us, who keeps taking about being “victimised” by biology: no-one else has said that, rather the complete opposite!

I asked you a specific question in good faith last night (which you ignored): that isn’t targeting you. Neither are other posters: they don’t know you! They are engaging with your posts that you posted! What did you post them on an internet forum debate thread for, if you didn’t want them to be questioned and debated?

Some do post in good faith as you put it, others don’t.

I saw a different thread last night where a regular poster here said “go to this thread where we debated (took the piss out of) this exact thing.” Admitted that sometimes that’s the motive.

There are posters here who will ask the same question, that has been answered, repeatedly and then say they’re in good faith. They’re not, are they.

I also genuinely believe that there are some who are so incensed by a view that isn’t either GC or the just not the same as theirs, that they react passionately, and then with irritation.

The same groups of people respond in quick succession, making the exact same points, and then back pat each other about how intentionally “piss taking” they’ve been toward someone. “We’ve been collectively rude, aren’t we hilarious, good one fellow feminist 😂👏🏻” And then have the audacity to talk about cults?

So transparent.

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 13:11

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 12:55

It was targeted and you all know it.

There is a huge difference between engaging in a back and forth with someone, when they’re actually present to debate with, and reigniting it a day later with a very specific naming of that one person, talking about them and not to them.

You can dress it up however you like, at least I speak directly to you and not post things like “people like RedToothBrush..” when your back is metaphorically turned.

You have made your views quite clear, repeatedly, I don’t know what purpose there was in repeating them yet again.

My lived experiences don’t involve group efforts to vilify people on the internet, that is not a shared experience of all women, whether they share biology or not.

I’m sorry you feel victimised by your biology, however despite losing absolutely no sleep about it, that’s not an excuse to victimise other people.

This is just nonsense - for example, I don’t know anyone else on this thread and there’s no “group” and no “targeted” anything. I have been trying to engage with the actual posts you’ve posted - and it’s YOU who have sought to “group” people together, explicitly writing about “the GC community” (what community?)

Coming on to a thread on an internet forum specifically designed for debate then accusing posters who debate with your posts of targeting and attacking you is a victim mentality of the highest order. It’s also you, not us, who keeps taking about being “victimised” by biology: no-one else has said that, rather the complete opposite!

I asked you a specific question in good faith last night (which you ignored): that isn’t targeting you. Neither are other posters: they don’t know you! They are engaging with your posts that you posted! What did you post them on an internet forum debate thread for, if you didn’t want them to be questioned and debated?

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 12:55

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 09:04

Since when is commenting on anything said on MN a day or two previously and following the last point in that conversation 'bullying'???!!! Get a grip.

Does this mean that if a thread in AIBU is seen by someone a couple of days later, they no longer can reply if they wish to comment or disagree with a previous point?

Come on now! Disagreeing is and having objections to the content of someone's posts is and giving a full explanation of why it's problematic is not bullying. It's continuing the thread where it left off.

Otherwise perhaps you should ask MN to lock all threads that haven't been posted on within the last 12 hours and see how that goes down across the site.

What gets me is the use of any argument possible to avoid being accountable for what you've actually said. It's deflect, deflect, deflect.

Gender is a sexism. Biology doesn't define us, but it's an inescapable reality in our lives that we can't pretend doesn't exist.

This doesn't change because it's been intellectualised by word salad. We all can see straight through it because of our own lived experiences.

It was targeted and you all know it.

There is a huge difference between engaging in a back and forth with someone, when they’re actually present to debate with, and reigniting it a day later with a very specific naming of that one person, talking about them and not to them.

You can dress it up however you like, at least I speak directly to you and not post things like “people like RedToothBrush..” when your back is metaphorically turned.

You have made your views quite clear, repeatedly, I don’t know what purpose there was in repeating them yet again.

My lived experiences don’t involve group efforts to vilify people on the internet, that is not a shared experience of all women, whether they share biology or not.

I’m sorry you feel victimised by your biology, however despite losing absolutely no sleep about it, that’s not an excuse to victimise other people.

TabbyCatInAPoolofSunshine · 17/06/2025 10:36

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 00:33

Quite possibly - I don’t believe it’s right to question (incessantly, I’d add) how someone else sees themselves in a body, brain and environment that I don’t live in.

You can be whatever you want as far as I’m concerned, what’s it got to do with me, and why would I intentionally hurt your feelings by telling you otherwise.

I also think that generally speaking we could do a lot more minding our own business.

Theres more to life, certainly my life, than bothering myself with what someone else wants to do or be called. I’d probably just call them it and get on with it.

OP’s sister in law could just be my new BIL as far as I’m concerned. I don’t see it as a big deal, and I wouldn’t go out of my way to do anything about it.

My brother could tell me tomorrow that his name is Sandra, and nothing would change in our relationship beyond the fact he’s got a new name.

It makes no difference to you, but it does make a difference to the women's Sunday football (or rugby) team he then swaps to from his current men's team, and to the teams they play against.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 10:19

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 09:04

Since when is commenting on anything said on MN a day or two previously and following the last point in that conversation 'bullying'???!!! Get a grip.

Does this mean that if a thread in AIBU is seen by someone a couple of days later, they no longer can reply if they wish to comment or disagree with a previous point?

Come on now! Disagreeing is and having objections to the content of someone's posts is and giving a full explanation of why it's problematic is not bullying. It's continuing the thread where it left off.

Otherwise perhaps you should ask MN to lock all threads that haven't been posted on within the last 12 hours and see how that goes down across the site.

What gets me is the use of any argument possible to avoid being accountable for what you've actually said. It's deflect, deflect, deflect.

Gender is a sexism. Biology doesn't define us, but it's an inescapable reality in our lives that we can't pretend doesn't exist.

This doesn't change because it's been intellectualised by word salad. We all can see straight through it because of our own lived experiences.

👏

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 17/06/2025 09:49

I suspect the latter rather than the former, @MissScarletInTheBallroom.

I cannot and will not accept that it is bigoted or hateful or unacceptable to say that women and girls should not have to see naked penises in their intimate spaces (changing rooms etc), and that to force them to do so unconsensually is not just unacceptable - it is sexual abuse!