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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sibling in law

989 replies

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 17:39

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:38

I think it’s a bit more complex than dressing like sheep (or like women).

I said I believed identity was real and complex, not a dress code.

It might be complex.

But it still doesn't mean a male is a woman.

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 17:38

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 16:29

I don’t know if it’s instantly acquired and set aside, or developed in the same way that everyone else’s is.

Whether that’s because of their own experiences, a disconnect in some way between their biology and identity, or because they recognise the socialisation of females and actually identify with those more than the male ones, I have no way of telling you because I’ve never claimed to be trans.

I can’t associate, certainly not fully, with an experience I’ve never lived.

@SleeplessInWherever

Okay, so imagine that you go for an interview for a promotion at your company. Afterwards, you bump into the chair of the job panel and they say, “Well, my dear, you were the best qualified candidate by a mile, but we didn’t! appoint you because we really need someone stable in the role and we think you’d just go off and have babies soon anyway!”

Have you been discriminated against, and if so, on the basis of what?

You decide to take your employer to a tribunal. At the tribunal your employer’s counsel argues that there has been no discrimination because the company appointed a trans woman to the role, so there is no discrimination against you on the basis of your being a woman, because they appointed a woman.

Your counsel says that it was sex discrimination based on the fact that as a biological woman the company assumed that you would go off and “have babies”, which isn’t the case for the trans woman. Opposing counsel then argues that to define “woman” as sex, eg. as capable of having babies, is reducing women to biology, so this shouldn’t be a factor at all. In addition, counsel argues that the trans woman is a woman, and also biological, so therefore is also a biological woman, just as you are.

The judge agrees, and rules that there has been no discrimination.

Do you think the judgment is right? Have you suffered any discrimination, or not?

After all, reducing women to sex is painting them as victims of their own biology. And gender identity is more important, so we shouldn’t reduce one to the other, should we? Your employer’s comment is fair game, since everyone is an individual and their individual identity is more important than their sex — and in the context of that, why does it matter why they didn’t appoint you? There are no real commonalities we can draw between candidates because their lived experience is all so different!

Doesn’t this just end up at the (very right wing, individualist) conclusion that everyone is just an individual with their own lived experience which is more important than any characteristics they share, so attempts to improve the experience of particular groups or classes are groundless, even immoral? DEI is just reducing people to being victims of their biology!

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:38

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 17:23

Do you think it would be safe for a mixed group of sheep and wolves dressed as sheep to share spaces?

I think it’s a bit more complex than dressing like sheep (or like women).

I said I believed identity was real and complex, not a dress code.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:37

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:20

Same reason that you’re so bothered that someone else does, I assume.

I couldn't give a crap whether other people believe in gender identity.

What bothers me is being forced into a non existent category with people with whom I have nothing in common and whose needs are not the same as mine, on the basis that they believe in it.

DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 17:35

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 17:27

Why is lying respectful?

Well, they've legally changed their name to a male one so to not use it would be incorrect.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:33

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:19

It would, but some of them are just sheep. And that’s the bit I choose to focus on.

But they aren't sheep, and that is the point.

You aren't choosing to focus on anything, you are explicitly denying reality and substituting it with fantasy. To the detriment of other women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 17:31

And btw the only thing I share with all other women in the world is being an adult human female. I share that with good women and with bad, it’s just biology so it has no bearing on anything. I don’t share it with any men, because they are not female.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 17:27

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:20

Same reason that you’re so bothered that someone else does, I assume.

Also, given that you can’t define it, I don’t really take your claimed belief in gender identity as distinct from sex seriously in any sense. I can define my understanding of sex and gender, why can’t you? And “I could but I don’t want to” isn’t at all convincing to anyone, btw.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 17:27

DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 17:23

My cousin came out as a transman in his early 20s and I refer to him as he, by his new name etc. it took a little getting used to and a few misgenderings, and I asked quite a few weird questions I think.

But I think it's respectful to call them their chosen name and gender. They know they're trans, and not the same as being the other bio sex. But it's respectful to address them how they wish.

Why is lying respectful?

Heggettypeg · 17/06/2025 17:26

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 15:01

I appreciate that this one of the things that people find most ambiguous and therefore difficult, but my identity isn’t linked exclusively to sex.

I’m female because of biology. I’m a woman because of my internal sense of self, which is linked to my experiences, relationships, place in the world I specifically live in, the influences in that world. I cannot explain for anyone what that’s meant to (or not meant to) feel like for them, because I’m not you. But all of those things are far more important to me than biology.

For example, I’m haven’t achieved anything because of or in spite of my sex. But I have achieved things in spite of my background. That matters more to me.

I think it’s quite clear from threads like this one that sharing biology with some people isn’t enough to place you in a “group” with them. Certainly not socially. There are many here I share biology with but identify with in absolutely no other way whatsoever, and I would actually prefer to not share physical spaces with them over the people who they think are the issue.

I don't think anybody's identity is linked exclusively to sex.
I would say that my biology is female and that is how I know I am a woman.
In addition to that, like everyone else I have a whole range of traits, habits, preferences etc which make up my character.
A lot of these traits would not be coded "masculine" or "feminine" by anyone ( eg I prefer roast parsnips to boiled carrots).
Some might be coded feminine by a lot of people (I like to sew), some masculine (I am irritated by irrationality); for some it would definitely depend who you asked (I like reading and don't consider that either masculine or feminine; but a rebellious teenage boy might say reading is for girls and cissies, and the people who shot Malala Yousafzai would say reading is for men and boys only.)
What I am not clear about is why I or anyone needs to carve out a highly selective subset of these many character traits, call it a "gender" and "identify" with it. I have a physical sex and a character and between them that covers everything.
Frankly, if we are going to talk in terms of gender and be realistic about it, I would say that pretty much everyone is "non-binary"!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 17:23

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:19

It would, but some of them are just sheep. And that’s the bit I choose to focus on.

Do you think it would be safe for a mixed group of sheep and wolves dressed as sheep to share spaces?

DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 17:23

My cousin came out as a transman in his early 20s and I refer to him as he, by his new name etc. it took a little getting used to and a few misgenderings, and I asked quite a few weird questions I think.

But I think it's respectful to call them their chosen name and gender. They know they're trans, and not the same as being the other bio sex. But it's respectful to address them how they wish.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 17:22

When all is said and done, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks or the reams of nonsensical special pleading they write about it. Legally, “trans women” are considered men.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:20

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 17:11

Why does the fact that most women here don’t believe in innate gender identity bother you so much@SleeplessInWherever?

Same reason that you’re so bothered that someone else does, I assume.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:20

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:17

Unless I absolutely didn’t understand the SC judgement, you literally don’t have to have biological males in your spaces.

I assume the best of people, male or female, until shown otherwise. I find it an easier way to live than to assume constant threat, or group people together by their potential risk factor.

We can all have our legal rights protected, I don’t believe they’re always different rights, but even when they are someone else having their needs met doesn’t have to mean that mine don’t matter.

Using unconsenting members of the opposite sex to validate your philosophical belief that you are a member of the opposite sex despite all evidence to the contrary is not a need to be met.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:19

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:13

A better analogy would be considering wolves in sheeps' clothing as a category of sheep.

Let's cut all the apples and bananas crap.

It would, but some of them are just sheep. And that’s the bit I choose to focus on.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 17:19

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 17:16

What's the point in anything then? Do humans not need to benefit from human rights?

I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin. I will not invoke Godwin.

The way a sizeable percentage of autistic kids in 2025 Britain are treated is absoluetely cracking isn't it?

TheFlakyAquaSloth · 17/06/2025 17:19

arethereanyleftatall · 12/06/2025 19:02

Refuse to play along with it. Not pandering to delusions might be the best way to help her.

This she can’t change her biological sex it is impossible to change your DNA

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:18

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:15

You don't think women need to benefit from women's rights?

That's quite the hot take.

I don’t think I need to benefit from things specifically by virtue of being female.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:17

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 17:11

One bad apple can in fact make a whole bushel of apples bad.

I don't believe all men are bad. I don't believe all trans women want to be women to perv on biological women in changing rooms.

But tell me. How can we know which men or trans women are bad? Do we just have to wait til they've harmed us? Or should we just ask that out rights are respected? Much like men and trans people the world over want theirs to be respected.

Why do women's rights have to be taken away to allow trans rights? Why can't we all have rights that fit the purpose?

Unless I absolutely didn’t understand the SC judgement, you literally don’t have to have biological males in your spaces.

I assume the best of people, male or female, until shown otherwise. I find it an easier way to live than to assume constant threat, or group people together by their potential risk factor.

We can all have our legal rights protected, I don’t believe they’re always different rights, but even when they are someone else having their needs met doesn’t have to mean that mine don’t matter.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 17:16

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:15

You don't think women need to benefit from women's rights?

That's quite the hot take.

What was that about 'hard won battles' being taken for granted.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 17:16

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:15

You don't think women need to benefit from women's rights?

That's quite the hot take.

What's the point in anything then? Do humans not need to benefit from human rights?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:15

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:13

I’m not sure I need to benefit from everything, is pretty much the top and bottom of my response.

The rest, whilst I can see was you re-explaining because you don’t think I get your point, is just repeating what’s already been said.

You don't think women need to benefit from women's rights?

That's quite the hot take.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:13

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:05

I didn’t start it, someone else did last night.

Apples would probably be a better analogy for men, because one bad apple doesn’t spoil the whole the whole bunch. There are good apples, and I (again, personally) don’t blame all of them for the actions of others.

A better analogy would be considering wolves in sheeps' clothing as a category of sheep.

Let's cut all the apples and bananas crap.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 17:13

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:09

Which it can, and does, because everyone can define sex.

I just don’t claim to know, or even concern myself with, everyone’s gender, why they have it, or what it means to them.

If you have sex specific spaces, which you do, why would you even care what someone’s gender identity is.

We don't care what their gender identity is. We care that people are trying to say they've changed sex. When they can't.

Identify as a shower curtain for all I care. You do you. Just leave our spaces and rights as women, which is a sex, not a gender identity, alone.