Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sibling in law

989 replies

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

OP posts:
DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 18:30

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:40

Respect isn’t important to everyone, unfortunately!

I would want to be called the name I chose if I had changed it. My trans cousin knows he's not a man. But he sees himself as a transman and lives as one so I wouldn't go against that. I don't think any men who know him find it offensive that he's trans?

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 18:28

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 18:14

Not complacent, but surely there’s a new or different issue. Within the same category, if need be.

I would assume that the judgement was a tick in the right box for the people that fought that fight. New fight, surely?

As I mentioned above, the vulnerability of an individual with autism (as OP mentions in her post) isn’t lost on me, and I can well believe that it’s the responsibility of those around them to safeguard them and ensure they actually have the capacity and understanding to make those choices.

You might be unfamiliar with how we reached this point. The law has not changed, but Stonewall and other organisations campaigned for over a decade for organisations to ‘get ahead of the law’.

That is why there are high profile tribunals this year involving the NHS, The law that relates to the Darlington and Fife cases was confirmed in 2022, but this did not ensure that it was subsequently followed.

It’s one thing for the law to be confirmed. Another to ensure that it is observed.

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 18:27

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:59

No, because they also might not, and who knows how long the future is.

But I think we’d be very naive to not assume that it’s a consideration, for the reasons above.

A former colleague of mine had 2 babies in 2 years. If I recall correctly, she had baby 1, a year out, came back already pregnant, left again approx 6 months later, and then came back another year later.

There’s obviously absolutely no question that how and when we have children isn’t up for question from employers, but there’s also obviously a real impact. Which if we’re honest, we all know and understand.

This is of course the individualist view, and very much the one taken by those who tend to be on the political right.

To put it another way, I could argue that “disabled” vs “able-bodied” wasn’t as important a classification as how individuals perceive their own identity. After all, some people with disabilities might be advantaged in other ways; some might not perceive themselves to be badly off at all, or have been in any way disadvantaged; disabilities vary so widely by individual person, and every person’s lived experience is so varied and socially mediated that their lived experience is far more important than anything they share (after all, what does a partially sighted from birth person have in common with someone who had their foot amputated after a heroin overdose, and what do they have in common with someone with mild Parkinson’s disease — or, indeed, autism?) Treating them all the same is reducing them to their disability! Saying they are “disabled people” is encouraging them to feel victimised by their biology!

And what if that happened to fit right into the agenda of other people who don’t really think disabled people should have any rights anyway?

We could run the same thought experiment on a variety of different protected characteristics. For some reason, though, biological sex seems to have become the fashionable one to disavow…

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 18:16

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 18:11

I am not arguing for or against diversity quotas.

The point is that if they exist, they should be used to facilitate the inclusion of people who are underrepresented.

Not trans women, who are for the most part heterosexual white males, and only constitute a minority group by virtue of the fact that they have created a minority group and identified into it. Neither are they oppressed or disadvantaged in any meaningful way.

Despite being an alleged virtue signaller, I don’t think they should exist at all, which nullifies the argument for me.

Best people for the job, diverse or otherwise. You shouldn’t get a round of applause for employing any minority employee, they’re either right for the job or they’re not.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 18:14

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 18:09

It took years of legal cases to confirm that these rights are protected, (I think For Women Scotland met via this board) and the SC gave their judgement just 2 months ago. This probably isn’t the best place to argue that women can be complacent.

It’s quite clear that many people strongly disagree with the judgement and are taking action to minimise its impact/change the law. I can direct you to the fund raisers if you want.

Going back to the question of the OP, I think 2 things are relevant.

  1. Are any beliefs being enforced on the OP? The OP can judge how important that is to them. For comparison, if a relative became a born again Christian, it might be polite to participate in grace, but it could also be rude for the relative to enforce it on other people or to start telling the OP’s children they would go to hell without being saved. It’s up to the OP to decide how to navigate this.

2). Health care. I think this was actually the OP’s main concern. How far to endorse a course of action that might be harmful, given what has been revealed by the Cass report. I think when dealing with adults, probably best to recognise their autonomy and let them get on with it - if there is concern that the relative is particularly vulnerable discuss that with the spouse and let them take the lead.

Not complacent, but surely there’s a new or different issue. Within the same category, if need be.

I would assume that the judgement was a tick in the right box for the people that fought that fight. New fight, surely?

As I mentioned above, the vulnerability of an individual with autism (as OP mentions in her post) isn’t lost on me, and I can well believe that it’s the responsibility of those around them to safeguard them and ensure they actually have the capacity and understanding to make those choices.

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 18:14

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 18:07

But - if sex is the determining factor, which we’ve agreed it is, because it’s the legal definition, you already can’t hire a trans woman and say they’re female. Because they’re not.

I also don’t know fully if this is what you meant, but I really resent the idea that we are a diversity quota. We should get the jobs we deserve, not to tick a box.

I wouldn’t want to get a job in the police force for example, because they’re hitting female quota. I want a job on merit alone, not because of my biological status. That doesn’t earn anyone anything.

Until April, many organisations understood the opposite.

It was pretty much the whole point of the court case.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 18:11

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 18:07

But - if sex is the determining factor, which we’ve agreed it is, because it’s the legal definition, you already can’t hire a trans woman and say they’re female. Because they’re not.

I also don’t know fully if this is what you meant, but I really resent the idea that we are a diversity quota. We should get the jobs we deserve, not to tick a box.

I wouldn’t want to get a job in the police force for example, because they’re hitting female quota. I want a job on merit alone, not because of my biological status. That doesn’t earn anyone anything.

I am not arguing for or against diversity quotas.

The point is that if they exist, they should be used to facilitate the inclusion of people who are underrepresented.

Not trans women, who are for the most part heterosexual white males, and only constitute a minority group by virtue of the fact that they have created a minority group and identified into it. Neither are they oppressed or disadvantaged in any meaningful way.

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 18:09

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:45

We do agree on those points, and both can acknowledge that the law already reflects that sex based rights are protected.

Surely it’s not about whether people think they should be, they are, end of conversation.

With that in mind, in OP’s case, why does it matter what we refer to people as or if they decide to change their name, what they wear - anything. The point was sex based rights, which you have and as you point out the SC confirmed, so what’s the problem now?

It took years of legal cases to confirm that these rights are protected, (I think For Women Scotland met via this board) and the SC gave their judgement just 2 months ago. This probably isn’t the best place to argue that women can be complacent.

It’s quite clear that many people strongly disagree with the judgement and are taking action to minimise its impact/change the law. I can direct you to the fund raisers if you want.

Going back to the question of the OP, I think 2 things are relevant.

  1. Are any beliefs being enforced on the OP? The OP can judge how important that is to them. For comparison, if a relative became a born again Christian, it might be polite to participate in grace, but it could also be rude for the relative to enforce it on other people or to start telling the OP’s children they would go to hell without being saved. It’s up to the OP to decide how to navigate this.

2). Health care. I think this was actually the OP’s main concern. How far to endorse a course of action that might be harmful, given what has been revealed by the Cass report. I think when dealing with adults, probably best to recognise their autonomy and let them get on with it - if there is concern that the relative is particularly vulnerable discuss that with the spouse and let them take the lead.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 18:07

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 18:02

All absolutely correct.

Trans women aren't affected by any of that, are they?

In fact, they directly benefit from diversity initiatives designed to facilitate the inclusion of people who are at some sort of disadvantage, such as women and disabled people. Because, by hiring or promoting a trans woman, an employer can claim diversity brownie points without needing to do anything other than a bit of virtue signalling, unlike hiring or promoting a disabled person or a woman, which might actually require a little effort on their part.

But perhaps that will change now, if trans women require separate toilet provision.

But - if sex is the determining factor, which we’ve agreed it is, because it’s the legal definition, you already can’t hire a trans woman and say they’re female. Because they’re not.

I also don’t know fully if this is what you meant, but I really resent the idea that we are a diversity quota. We should get the jobs we deserve, not to tick a box.

I wouldn’t want to get a job in the police force for example, because they’re hitting female quota. I want a job on merit alone, not because of my biological status. That doesn’t earn anyone anything.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 18:02

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:59

No, because they also might not, and who knows how long the future is.

But I think we’d be very naive to not assume that it’s a consideration, for the reasons above.

A former colleague of mine had 2 babies in 2 years. If I recall correctly, she had baby 1, a year out, came back already pregnant, left again approx 6 months later, and then came back another year later.

There’s obviously absolutely no question that how and when we have children isn’t up for question from employers, but there’s also obviously a real impact. Which if we’re honest, we all know and understand.

All absolutely correct.

Trans women aren't affected by any of that, are they?

In fact, they directly benefit from diversity initiatives designed to facilitate the inclusion of people who are at some sort of disadvantage, such as women and disabled people. Because, by hiring or promoting a trans woman, an employer can claim diversity brownie points without needing to do anything other than a bit of virtue signalling, unlike hiring or promoting a disabled person or a woman, which might actually require a little effort on their part.

But perhaps that will change now, if trans women require separate toilet provision.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:59

spannasaurus · 17/06/2025 17:53

Do you think it's acceptable for employers not to hire women because they might have children either now or in the future

No, because they also might not, and who knows how long the future is.

But I think we’d be very naive to not assume that it’s a consideration, for the reasons above.

A former colleague of mine had 2 babies in 2 years. If I recall correctly, she had baby 1, a year out, came back already pregnant, left again approx 6 months later, and then came back another year later.

There’s obviously absolutely no question that how and when we have children isn’t up for question from employers, but there’s also obviously a real impact. Which if we’re honest, we all know and understand.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 17/06/2025 17:56

So how does the wolf’s biology change into the sheep’s biology? A wolf doesn’t become a sheep just by wearing the sheep’s skin - it is still a wolf underneath.

There is no medical and/or surgical treatment that can make a man into a woman, or a woman into a man. They can’t even make a functional penis or vagina, and attach it to a person of the opposite sex. Human biology involves so much more - human males have different skeletal structure to human females, a different endocrine system, different chromosomes, different musculature - and there is no medical or surgical treatment that can change these.

And the only way to know what it feels like to be a woman is to be born female. A man can try to imagine what it feels like to be female, but has no lived experience to use as his frame of reference. It’s exactly the same as me saying I am a cat. I have no lived experience of being a cat, and can only base my feelings on my observations of cats, and my own imagination.

These are facts, and facts are not hate.

Hate is telling lesbians that they do not have the right to say they don’t want sex with a penis-Hager, just because he identifies as female.

Hate is telling females that they are not allowed to have anything that is solely female - no all female rape crisis groups, or prison cells, or domestic violence shelters, lesbian dating groups - not even any meeting of any kind can be just for female people.

Hate is telling girls that they have to be exposed to a naked penis in their changing room because a boy identifies as a girl, his feelings are the only ones that matter, and they have to be happy to see his penis and to get naked in front of him.

Hate is telling women and girls that they have to accept bigger, stronger, faster males in their single sex sports, beating them with ease, taking their medals, their opportunities, their scholarships, their competition places.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:54

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:45

We do agree on those points, and both can acknowledge that the law already reflects that sex based rights are protected.

Surely it’s not about whether people think they should be, they are, end of conversation.

With that in mind, in OP’s case, why does it matter what we refer to people as or if they decide to change their name, what they wear - anything. The point was sex based rights, which you have and as you point out the SC confirmed, so what’s the problem now?

Because the Supreme Court judgment is not everything.

Because rights can be taken away.

Because members of the current Labour government are making noises about how the Equality Act should be amended to recognise trans women are women.

Because the International Olympic Committee said "everyone agrees that trans women are women" to justify its decision to let men compete in women's categories.

Because Lisa Nandy said "trans women are women" in order to justify male rapists being housed in women's prisons.

Because most rape crisis organisations have said "trans women are women" in order to justify not letting female rape survivors have the female only support they need and deserve.

Because not everyone lives in the UK and feminists right for women's rights worldwide.

Because governments can be voted into and out of power and laws can be made and unmade.

The Supreme Court confirmed that women's rights have been infringed for the last fifteen years, but it can't prevent those rights from being removed through the correct channels.

"Constant vigilance", as Mad Eye Moody would say.

HousePlantEmergency · 17/06/2025 17:53

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:45

We do agree on those points, and both can acknowledge that the law already reflects that sex based rights are protected.

Surely it’s not about whether people think they should be, they are, end of conversation.

With that in mind, in OP’s case, why does it matter what we refer to people as or if they decide to change their name, what they wear - anything. The point was sex based rights, which you have and as you point out the SC confirmed, so what’s the problem now?

But some sex based rights are still not protected.
Crime and offending statistics are being skewed because the crimes of trans identified men are being recorded as female crimes.

It is not fair. It's not ok. And it is a misrepresentation of actual reality.

spannasaurus · 17/06/2025 17:53

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:50

That’s honesty a can of worms.

Do we honestly believe that our existing family and/or family planning has no impact on our employment?

We've got an autistic child, I require (and get) a lot of flexibility that my colleagues don’t need. If I was looking for a new job, that would put employers off.

That’s just reality, and sex doesn’t come into it. It would put new employee off my partner too.

There are implications to employers when people have children, maternity and paternity, staff coverage, childcare plans why they return. It’s again, just fact.

Do you think it's acceptable for employers not to hire women because they might have children either now or in the future

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:50

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 17:38

@SleeplessInWherever

Okay, so imagine that you go for an interview for a promotion at your company. Afterwards, you bump into the chair of the job panel and they say, “Well, my dear, you were the best qualified candidate by a mile, but we didn’t! appoint you because we really need someone stable in the role and we think you’d just go off and have babies soon anyway!”

Have you been discriminated against, and if so, on the basis of what?

You decide to take your employer to a tribunal. At the tribunal your employer’s counsel argues that there has been no discrimination because the company appointed a trans woman to the role, so there is no discrimination against you on the basis of your being a woman, because they appointed a woman.

Your counsel says that it was sex discrimination based on the fact that as a biological woman the company assumed that you would go off and “have babies”, which isn’t the case for the trans woman. Opposing counsel then argues that to define “woman” as sex, eg. as capable of having babies, is reducing women to biology, so this shouldn’t be a factor at all. In addition, counsel argues that the trans woman is a woman, and also biological, so therefore is also a biological woman, just as you are.

The judge agrees, and rules that there has been no discrimination.

Do you think the judgment is right? Have you suffered any discrimination, or not?

After all, reducing women to sex is painting them as victims of their own biology. And gender identity is more important, so we shouldn’t reduce one to the other, should we? Your employer’s comment is fair game, since everyone is an individual and their individual identity is more important than their sex — and in the context of that, why does it matter why they didn’t appoint you? There are no real commonalities we can draw between candidates because their lived experience is all so different!

Doesn’t this just end up at the (very right wing, individualist) conclusion that everyone is just an individual with their own lived experience which is more important than any characteristics they share, so attempts to improve the experience of particular groups or classes are groundless, even immoral? DEI is just reducing people to being victims of their biology!

That’s honesty a can of worms.

Do we honestly believe that our existing family and/or family planning has no impact on our employment?

We've got an autistic child, I require (and get) a lot of flexibility that my colleagues don’t need. If I was looking for a new job, that would put employers off.

That’s just reality, and sex doesn’t come into it. It would put new employee off my partner too.

There are implications to employers when people have children, maternity and paternity, staff coverage, childcare plans why they return. It’s again, just fact.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 17:49

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:37

I couldn't give a crap whether other people believe in gender identity.

What bothers me is being forced into a non existent category with people with whom I have nothing in common and whose needs are not the same as mine, on the basis that they believe in it.

Same.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 17:48

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:38

I think it’s a bit more complex than dressing like sheep (or like women).

I said I believed identity was real and complex, not a dress code.

The point of the analogy stands, however “complex” you think it is.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:45

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 17:39

Great - so we have established that it’s important to be able to objectively define women! Thank goodness For Wonen Scotland took their case to court!

We also seem to agree that gender identity is a completely subjective concept so can’t be easily categorised.

I concern myself with it in the same way I engage with any other belief system. I feel free to criticise different beliefs but also defend other people’s right to hold them.

Conflict only arises where somebody’s belief affects my rights. Recent events post the SC ruling demonstrate that many people strongly believe that sex based rights should not be protected in the Equality Act.

We do agree on those points, and both can acknowledge that the law already reflects that sex based rights are protected.

Surely it’s not about whether people think they should be, they are, end of conversation.

With that in mind, in OP’s case, why does it matter what we refer to people as or if they decide to change their name, what they wear - anything. The point was sex based rights, which you have and as you point out the SC confirmed, so what’s the problem now?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:45

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 17:38

@SleeplessInWherever

Okay, so imagine that you go for an interview for a promotion at your company. Afterwards, you bump into the chair of the job panel and they say, “Well, my dear, you were the best qualified candidate by a mile, but we didn’t! appoint you because we really need someone stable in the role and we think you’d just go off and have babies soon anyway!”

Have you been discriminated against, and if so, on the basis of what?

You decide to take your employer to a tribunal. At the tribunal your employer’s counsel argues that there has been no discrimination because the company appointed a trans woman to the role, so there is no discrimination against you on the basis of your being a woman, because they appointed a woman.

Your counsel says that it was sex discrimination based on the fact that as a biological woman the company assumed that you would go off and “have babies”, which isn’t the case for the trans woman. Opposing counsel then argues that to define “woman” as sex, eg. as capable of having babies, is reducing women to biology, so this shouldn’t be a factor at all. In addition, counsel argues that the trans woman is a woman, and also biological, so therefore is also a biological woman, just as you are.

The judge agrees, and rules that there has been no discrimination.

Do you think the judgment is right? Have you suffered any discrimination, or not?

After all, reducing women to sex is painting them as victims of their own biology. And gender identity is more important, so we shouldn’t reduce one to the other, should we? Your employer’s comment is fair game, since everyone is an individual and their individual identity is more important than their sex — and in the context of that, why does it matter why they didn’t appoint you? There are no real commonalities we can draw between candidates because their lived experience is all so different!

Doesn’t this just end up at the (very right wing, individualist) conclusion that everyone is just an individual with their own lived experience which is more important than any characteristics they share, so attempts to improve the experience of particular groups or classes are groundless, even immoral? DEI is just reducing people to being victims of their biology!

And then, just to make things really fun, say you are fed up with being a woman and you transition to become a trans man and get a gender recognition certificate.

You subsequently discover that your male colleague who does exactly the same job as you is getting paid twice as much. You try to bring an equal pay claim but your claim is thrown out because, legally speaking, the person whose salary you are using as a comparator is the same sex as you.

happy harry potter GIF by BAFTA
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:42

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:40

Respect isn’t important to everyone, unfortunately!

A lot of people certainly seem to have none for women, that's for sure.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:41

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:38

I think it’s a bit more complex than dressing like sheep (or like women).

I said I believed identity was real and complex, not a dress code.

It's real to them, not to anyone else.

The law doesn't need to take into account people's personal and subjective identities.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 17:41

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:40

Respect isn’t important to everyone, unfortunately!

Respect seems to be a one way track...

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:40

DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 17:23

My cousin came out as a transman in his early 20s and I refer to him as he, by his new name etc. it took a little getting used to and a few misgenderings, and I asked quite a few weird questions I think.

But I think it's respectful to call them their chosen name and gender. They know they're trans, and not the same as being the other bio sex. But it's respectful to address them how they wish.

Respect isn’t important to everyone, unfortunately!

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 17:39

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:09

Which it can, and does, because everyone can define sex.

I just don’t claim to know, or even concern myself with, everyone’s gender, why they have it, or what it means to them.

If you have sex specific spaces, which you do, why would you even care what someone’s gender identity is.

Great - so we have established that it’s important to be able to objectively define women! Thank goodness For Wonen Scotland took their case to court!

We also seem to agree that gender identity is a completely subjective concept so can’t be easily categorised.

I concern myself with it in the same way I engage with any other belief system. I feel free to criticise different beliefs but also defend other people’s right to hold them.

Conflict only arises where somebody’s belief affects my rights. Recent events post the SC ruling demonstrate that many people strongly believe that sex based rights should not be protected in the Equality Act.