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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sibling in law

989 replies

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

OP posts:
RainbowZebraWarrior · 17/06/2025 21:25

'What do all women have in common?'

We've probably all been subject to sexual assault. Growing breasts aged 10 and being groped freely by boys at school. And again as adults. Being scared to walk alone at night.

And also.

Feeling confused by our bodies but then accepting that most girls do feel like that during puberty, then later embracing being biological women in our own individual ways due to and despite our experiences. Giving birth and breastfeeding our children. (If we can) and realising that that is the true purpose of our breasts. Not for men's titillation.

Not all women give birth, I grant that. But no boy or man has ever been through what I've been through as a woman and never will. I refuse to accept that any man 'feels' or 'thinks' like a woman in the way I've experienced my whole life.

I'm an Autistic 54 year old woman. I've played pool and drank pints in pubs since I was 16. I don't pretend to have had the same experiences as a boy growing up or a man in this world. That's just not possible.

HousePlantEmergency · 17/06/2025 21:06

Honestly I'm just in complete despair.

No one here wishes bad will towards anyone.
Trans people need additional provision and support.
That is completely different to admitting them into a sex class that is immutable. Male or female.

And no one denies they exist, for goodness sake. Such a ridiculous teenage phrase.
Of course they exist.

No one has carte blanche to demand whatever they want purely because they 'exist'.
Utterly ridiculous.

drspouse · 17/06/2025 21:05

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 20:34

All biological females have their sex in common, and outside of that I’m not looking for commonality that most of the time isn’t there.

So you never call anyone a woman?

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/06/2025 21:03

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 17:05

I didn’t start it, someone else did last night.

Apples would probably be a better analogy for men, because one bad apple doesn’t spoil the whole the whole bunch. There are good apples, and I (again, personally) don’t blame all of them for the actions of others.

As a man, I think that's a little naïve. A bad apple can spread to those it is in contact with. Many men are vulnerable to corruption, both sexual and misuse of power. Men's sexuality can be difficult to control, and I think many women don't understand how much effort it can take to behave well when your biological urges are at their most demanding. Porn, ubiquitous and easy to access, tends to discourage self control. Changes to societal expectations, while often at least partially justified because society used to be very rigid, can make behaviour "acceptable" that is damaging. And who is most vulnerable to damage? Well, lots of people, including some men, but including virtually all women.

The fact (I claim) that men are easily led astray doesn't absolve us at all of our bad behaviour - we are responsible for our actions. But I don't like to see people minimising how dangerous any man can be if his self control is lowered.

RedToothBrush · 17/06/2025 20:49

So what it comes down to is confusing personality and a political sense of intellectual priviledged tribalism and belonging labelling it as gender with the unavoidable reality of sex.

Meanwhile anyone who sees this for the utter elitest bollocks it is, has to be somehow shoved into stupid boxes which can't ever be defined in law to appease those who see themselves as socially superior.

Good stuff. Glad we got there in the end.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 20:40

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 20:34

All biological females have their sex in common, and outside of that I’m not looking for commonality that most of the time isn’t there.

But if "woman" is an identity, in your world, what is the common factor there?

How does one belong to the identity of woman?

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 20:34

drspouse · 17/06/2025 19:58

So transwomen (i.e. men) aren't subject to sexism, you agree they aren't female.
So what makes them women?
You can't have a word for women as a category of humans that doesn't include some women.
You don't appear to think all women are female.
You've told us what you think makes you a woman, but what do all women have in common?
Or do you think it's not a word that can be defined? In which case why should we believe anyone who says they are one?

All biological females have their sex in common, and outside of that I’m not looking for commonality that most of the time isn’t there.

DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 20:31

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 20:13

Name, I can do. But I won't be gaslit to deny my eyes and lived experience as a member of the oppressed sex class to call a male 'she'. That is not respectful of the oppressed sex class, nor respectful of rape survivors to demand they call their rapist she. Pronouns are based on sex. I won't call a male in blackface an African American, and I won't call a male a 'she' either. It's not respectful to gaslit the oppressed to cosplay in the oppressor's fetish.

I see what you're saying. I don't lie and say my trans family members (I have two) are the opposite sex.

I state they are trans if asked and I do use their pronouns of choice. It doesn't offend me to use these pronouns as I know they are trans, a seperate category, not saying they have literally changed sex.

I don't think I'm being gaslit by accepting some people are trans, which is separate socially from being your bio sex. Personally and biologically they will still be the sex they're born with. But that's their own concern to manage.

I don't agree with trans women in female sport, refuges, prisons etc. but I accept that trans people exist and should be respected the same as anyone else.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 20:13

DiscoBob · 17/06/2025 17:35

Well, they've legally changed their name to a male one so to not use it would be incorrect.

Name, I can do. But I won't be gaslit to deny my eyes and lived experience as a member of the oppressed sex class to call a male 'she'. That is not respectful of the oppressed sex class, nor respectful of rape survivors to demand they call their rapist she. Pronouns are based on sex. I won't call a male in blackface an African American, and I won't call a male a 'she' either. It's not respectful to gaslit the oppressed to cosplay in the oppressor's fetish.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 17/06/2025 20:06

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:54

Because the Supreme Court judgment is not everything.

Because rights can be taken away.

Because members of the current Labour government are making noises about how the Equality Act should be amended to recognise trans women are women.

Because the International Olympic Committee said "everyone agrees that trans women are women" to justify its decision to let men compete in women's categories.

Because Lisa Nandy said "trans women are women" in order to justify male rapists being housed in women's prisons.

Because most rape crisis organisations have said "trans women are women" in order to justify not letting female rape survivors have the female only support they need and deserve.

Because not everyone lives in the UK and feminists right for women's rights worldwide.

Because governments can be voted into and out of power and laws can be made and unmade.

The Supreme Court confirmed that women's rights have been infringed for the last fifteen years, but it can't prevent those rights from being removed through the correct channels.

"Constant vigilance", as Mad Eye Moody would say.

Edited

Excellent post

drspouse · 17/06/2025 19:58

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 16:26

I have answered how I define woman, and female, and why I see them as different.

Sexism is based on sex, female, which we all share and isn’t something I’ve ever attempted to deny having.

So we can still fight being discriminated against on the basis of sex, because that’s not the same as gender.

So transwomen (i.e. men) aren't subject to sexism, you agree they aren't female.
So what makes them women?
You can't have a word for women as a category of humans that doesn't include some women.
You don't appear to think all women are female.
You've told us what you think makes you a woman, but what do all women have in common?
Or do you think it's not a word that can be defined? In which case why should we believe anyone who says they are one?

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 19:52

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 15:01

I appreciate that this one of the things that people find most ambiguous and therefore difficult, but my identity isn’t linked exclusively to sex.

I’m female because of biology. I’m a woman because of my internal sense of self, which is linked to my experiences, relationships, place in the world I specifically live in, the influences in that world. I cannot explain for anyone what that’s meant to (or not meant to) feel like for them, because I’m not you. But all of those things are far more important to me than biology.

For example, I’m haven’t achieved anything because of or in spite of my sex. But I have achieved things in spite of my background. That matters more to me.

I think it’s quite clear from threads like this one that sharing biology with some people isn’t enough to place you in a “group” with them. Certainly not socially. There are many here I share biology with but identify with in absolutely no other way whatsoever, and I would actually prefer to not share physical spaces with them over the people who they think are the issue.

I appreciate that this one of the things that people find most ambiguous and therefore difficult, but my identity isn’t linked exclusively to sex.

None of us here said it was. In fact, the only people who say their 'identity' is exclusively link to sex, is transactivists.

Your personality isn't linked to sex. That doesn't mean you are not a member of the oppressed sex class, a class which has historically, and still is, oppressed based on that sex. And our rights, based on our sex.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 19:47

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 16:24

Again, personally, I refer to trans women as just that, a category of woman.

That doesn’t change you being a woman, in whatever that means for you.

I also used banana apple, in the analogy we’re labouring, for the same reason.

The difference between trans woman and woman, IMO, is biology. Which I don’t dispute anyone having.

A male with penis and testicles in a dress is not any kind of 'woman'.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 19:26

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 15:01

I appreciate that this one of the things that people find most ambiguous and therefore difficult, but my identity isn’t linked exclusively to sex.

I’m female because of biology. I’m a woman because of my internal sense of self, which is linked to my experiences, relationships, place in the world I specifically live in, the influences in that world. I cannot explain for anyone what that’s meant to (or not meant to) feel like for them, because I’m not you. But all of those things are far more important to me than biology.

For example, I’m haven’t achieved anything because of or in spite of my sex. But I have achieved things in spite of my background. That matters more to me.

I think it’s quite clear from threads like this one that sharing biology with some people isn’t enough to place you in a “group” with them. Certainly not socially. There are many here I share biology with but identify with in absolutely no other way whatsoever, and I would actually prefer to not share physical spaces with them over the people who they think are the issue.

'Identity' is merely personality. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

There are 8 billion people on the planet, two sexes, and 8 billion personalities.

That's it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 18:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 18:48

It was news to many trans rights activists, who’d been given a biased, inaccurate interpretation of the law by TRA orgs. They weren’t impressed by the lawyer for the Scottish government’s line of argument about “trans women” without GRCs being men, and “trans lesbians” without GRCs being heterosexual men.

Yes, well, a banana, with or without an apple recognition certificate, is in fact a banana.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 18:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 18:34

Regarding the Supreme Court judgment, there's something else that is worth noting.

It was already common ground between the parties that a trans woman without a gender recognition certificate is a man for the purposes of the Equality Act. So the question put to the court was technically limited to whether a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate is a woman for the purposes of the Equality Act.

The reason this question was settled in court in the context of something as obscure as representation of women on boards is because, in everyday life where it really matters, most decision makers in society were already treating gender recognition certificates as an irrelevance.

In reality, trans women without gender recognition certificates were already using women's toilets and changing rooms, sometimes with express permission (e.g. the Darlington nurses' NHS trust), already had access to the full range of services for vulnerable and traumatised women (with the explicit blessing of the rape crisis and domestic violence sectors, if not the consent of the women themselves), were already being housed in women's prisons even after being convicted of sexual offences against women, and were already competing in women's sports.

Self ID in practice, if not in law.

The Supreme Court threw a curve ball by answering a narrow question more widely, and making it clear that where something is designated as being for women, it must be for real women only. De facto self ID is not in fact legal.

I bet the Scottish government are wishing they had picked their battles more wisely.

Meanwhile, entire sectors of our society need to accept the Supreme Court judgment and abide by it, and many of them are resisting in the strongest possible terms. If women don't stand up in support of the law and demand that our existing rights are upheld and maintained, the resisters will win. We cannot afford to be complacent.

Edited

It was news to many trans rights activists, who’d been given a biased, inaccurate interpretation of the law by TRA orgs. They weren’t impressed by the lawyer for the Scottish government’s line of argument about “trans women” without GRCs being men, and “trans lesbians” without GRCs being heterosexual men.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 18:36

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 18:32

That’s not the person who says that @IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos- @MissScarletInTheBallroom agrees with you.

Edited

You're right.

Sorry @MissScarletInTheBallroom I somehow saw your username as Sleepless. Maybe I need more sleep!

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 18:34

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 18:16

Despite being an alleged virtue signaller, I don’t think they should exist at all, which nullifies the argument for me.

Best people for the job, diverse or otherwise. You shouldn’t get a round of applause for employing any minority employee, they’re either right for the job or they’re not.

That's how it should be.

It's not how it is.

Life isn't some ideal place that follows all the rules to treat everyone equally. We, as women, have had to fight hard for that and still are fighting for a lot of it. Because for a long time, women were treated as less than men.

Why should we now be accommodating to men just because they also now want to be women? You can say "everyone should be treated equally regardless of their identity" as much as you like but the reality is that we are not.

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 18:34

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 18:07

But - if sex is the determining factor, which we’ve agreed it is, because it’s the legal definition, you already can’t hire a trans woman and say they’re female. Because they’re not.

I also don’t know fully if this is what you meant, but I really resent the idea that we are a diversity quota. We should get the jobs we deserve, not to tick a box.

I wouldn’t want to get a job in the police force for example, because they’re hitting female quota. I want a job on merit alone, not because of my biological status. That doesn’t earn anyone anything.

But the position of the non-“GC” side, the gender identity community (if you will), is precisely that you should be able to hire a trans woman and say they are female.

That’s the very scenario that eg. Jolyon Maugham and other objectors to the Supreme Court judgment want. That’s why they want gender identity to trump biological sex.

You can’t decide to be “anti-GC” but at the same time want to retain biological sex as a legal category when it suits. The “anti-GC” position is very definitely to get rid of biological sex as a legal category for the purposes of discrimination, etc., and substitute gender identity.

Everyone wants to have their job because of their unique abilities. But what about when it comes to discrimination? How do you ensure you get your job on the basis of your ability if lots of people see you as a stereotype? The answer isn’t to elevate stereotypes into “identities”.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 18:34

Regarding the Supreme Court judgment, there's something else that is worth noting.

It was already common ground between the parties that a trans woman without a gender recognition certificate is a man for the purposes of the Equality Act. So the question put to the court was technically limited to whether a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate is a woman for the purposes of the Equality Act.

The reason this question was settled in court in the context of something as obscure as representation of women on boards is because, in everyday life where it really matters, most decision makers in society were already treating gender recognition certificates as an irrelevance.

In reality, trans women without gender recognition certificates were already using women's toilets and changing rooms, sometimes with express permission (e.g. the Darlington nurses' NHS trust), already had access to the full range of services for vulnerable and traumatised women (with the explicit blessing of the rape crisis and domestic violence sectors, if not the consent of the women themselves), were already being housed in women's prisons even after being convicted of sexual offences against women, and were already competing in women's sports.

Self ID in practice, if not in law.

The Supreme Court threw a curve ball by answering a narrow question more widely, and making it clear that where something is designated as being for women, it must be for real women only. De facto self ID is not in fact legal.

I bet the Scottish government are wishing they had picked their battles more wisely.

Meanwhile, entire sectors of our society need to accept the Supreme Court judgment and abide by it, and many of them are resisting in the strongest possible terms. If women don't stand up in support of the law and demand that our existing rights are upheld and maintained, the resisters will win. We cannot afford to be complacent.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 18:33

Exactly @NecessaryScene

NecessaryScene · 17/06/2025 18:32

For some reason, though, biological sex seems to have become the fashionable one to disavow

That's the thing that I get stuck on.

You could do all the same word games for anything.

Every single thing waffle about "not reducing X" or "no common Y" works for every single word.

So why just "man" and "woman"? What's so special about men and women that we should pretend the words don't mean what they mean?

I can't see any rational reason for it - only the motivated reasoning that men want to be women.

And why stop there? The TRAs do extend the same logic to "male" and "female". Thinking that you can stop the games at "man" and "woman" is a very 2015 sort of view. (A kind of "this is fine" cope coming from inside women/gender studies view").

Merrymouse · 17/06/2025 18:32

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 18:27

This is of course the individualist view, and very much the one taken by those who tend to be on the political right.

To put it another way, I could argue that “disabled” vs “able-bodied” wasn’t as important a classification as how individuals perceive their own identity. After all, some people with disabilities might be advantaged in other ways; some might not perceive themselves to be badly off at all, or have been in any way disadvantaged; disabilities vary so widely by individual person, and every person’s lived experience is so varied and socially mediated that their lived experience is far more important than anything they share (after all, what does a partially sighted from birth person have in common with someone who had their foot amputated after a heroin overdose, and what do they have in common with someone with mild Parkinson’s disease — or, indeed, autism?) Treating them all the same is reducing them to their disability! Saying they are “disabled people” is encouraging them to feel victimised by their biology!

And what if that happened to fit right into the agenda of other people who don’t really think disabled people should have any rights anyway?

We could run the same thought experiment on a variety of different protected characteristics. For some reason, though, biological sex seems to have become the fashionable one to disavow…

Agree - if somebody is a right wing libertarian this argument makes sense.

However it seems to have become oddly popular amongst people whose claimed goal is to defend human rights. UN women and Amnesty for example.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 18:32

That’s not the person who says that @IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos- @MissScarletInTheBallroom agrees with you.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 17/06/2025 18:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 17:37

I couldn't give a crap whether other people believe in gender identity.

What bothers me is being forced into a non existent category with people with whom I have nothing in common and whose needs are not the same as mine, on the basis that they believe in it.

But that's what you're doing by saying that TWAW because woman is a "gender identity".

You're forcing biological women into what is now a completely meaningless category of "woman", which used to mean "adult female human" but now means "either sex, as long as they believe they are a woman, so basically any human".

I do not want to be forced into a category with people whom I have absolutely nothing in common with, not even my biological sex.