Trans sibling in law

I agree with you. But mumsnet is a transphobic space sadly.

Well you tell me what a gender is, where in the brain or body one would find it, and I’ll tell you if i have one or not.

I agree with you. But mumsnet is a transphobic space sadly.

Yes, HE is now your brother in law. But nobody else in MN will agree with me.

Well - the clue is in the name, but there are others who seem to reject gender fully. Someone earlier said it’s nonsense and they don’t have a gender, others think it’s too wishy washy to hold any real meaning at all.

I understand being critical of those stereotypes, but you can’t challenge them if you don’t acknowledge they exist. If you don’t believe in gender identity at all, how exactly can you challenge the stereotypes.

Reject being defined by it, which as I understand is basic feminism.

The clue is in the name ‘gender critical’.

I didn’t say what these characteristics were though. You did. I just provided the definition of gender from a global health body for someone who said they didn’t know what gender is

My FIL is actually or potentially deluded, I’m not sure which. It’s probably dementia.

Anyway… he’s told me and various family members many times, with apparently the deepest of sincerity, that he’s going to overcome/recover from his late-stage Parkinson’s Disease.

Therefore he is refusing to engage with this medication regime properly, to engage with physio or occupational therapy at all, and he continues to drive despite having accidents… he’s a huge danger to himself and others.

He lives overseas and when we visited recently the family were mainly in happy denial of, ‘oh dad’s keeping up a very positive attitude so we let him get on with it!’. And this attitude was leading to him having falls on a daily basis, and his capability rapidly and unnecessary reducing before everyone’s eyes.

When we visited and saw what was going on we were furious. Furious about the state he was in; furious that it was simply easier for everyone to go along with his delusions rather than doing the hard work of helping him. And furious that we’d been kept in the dark by everyone including him about how bad things had become since our last visit.

Should we therefore be continuing to support and encourage his delusions in an affirming way as he gallops down a deteriorating spiral of physical and mental health?

Or should we step in, nod politely at times, but underline to him that this is a degenerative condition for which there is no cure; and that by him and us doing the hard work of accepting that and engaging with treatment, we can actually improve his quality of life and extend his independence?

Does anyone see any parallels here?

That’s precisely her point, which you’re disingenuously “misunderstanding”. In 1940 those might definitely be “masculine”: not so in 2025. In 2025 gender ideologues frequently talk about short hair being “masc” — whereas the majority of women in 1985 had short hair, so it would have been ridiculous to talk about short hair being “masculine” at that time, no?

Gendered clothes, behaviours and stereotypes change over time and across different social groups. Some gendered stereotypes or roles are external, like clothes and hair; some are social or personality-based (a liking for maths, ability to knit, submissiveness or shyness). Obviously, since these are socially inflected and constructed, all individuals do/display/“perform” them to varying degrees and with a high degree of changeability. They’re to a large extent shifting preferences and choices, some conscious and some unconscious. So how can one “identify” with them? Is “identifying” with wearing dresses different to “identifying” with being timid, or being good at engineering, or liking watching formula 1? Is there a threshold for “masculine” attributes where if you tip over a certain amount you are “identifying” with masculinity whereas if you only like a few traditionally male things, you’re still “feminine” enough? If you did everything that was considered “masculine” but just didn’t “identify” as such, are you still “feminine”?

All of that is just to show how silly and nebulous these ideas of “identifying” with “gender” are. Nearly all “gendered” roles and attributes are socially produced behaviours, not expressions of innate dispositions. Otherwise they would not vary so much with fashion and social change, would they?

You think these can’t be characteristics of a woman? Interesting

I didn’t say what these characteristics were though. You did. I just provided the definition of gender from a global health body for someone who said they didn’t know what gender is

I didn’t say what these characteristics were though. You did. I just provided the definition of gender from a global health body for someone who said they didn’t know what gender is

To be clear, the WHO did not say this:

You can change your gender by adopting the characteristics of the gender you identify with as demonstrated by transgender people all over the world.

Obviously not. I think it's all nonsense.

I was referring to this definition of how you can 'change your gender' apparently supplied by the WHO - quoted by another poster upthread.

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy” The World Health Organisation. You can change your gender by adopting the characteristics of the gender you identify with as demonstrated by transgender people all over the world.

Obviously not. I think it's all nonsense.

I was referring to this definition of how you can 'change your gender' apparently supplied by the WHO - quoted by another poster upthread.

Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy” The World Health Organisation. You can change your gender by adopting the characteristics of the gender you identify with as demonstrated by transgender people all over the world.

You think these can’t be characteristics of a woman? Interesting

You think these can’t be characteristics of a woman? Interesting

So as a woman, if I wear trousers, have short hair, do manual work and watch the football - then I've 'changed gender' and am a man? Is that right?

Gender is bollocks, in my humble opinion.

If gender is a performative construct, you’d be performing the male gender.

The thing that always strikes me about this specific part of the debate, is that you’re all seemingly intelligent people. You know what gender is; or certainly what other people believe it to be. So when people start with the “but what is gender, how do we know which someone is, is it not just stereotyping” - you know the answer, you’ve read the research and studied the articles.

Well I'm none the wiser about what gender is and how we can change it.

I've been told (both on here and irl) that it's the stereotypes placed upon us due to our sex. Eg men like blue, football and beer.
And also that it isn't anything to do with stereotypes it's an inner feeling which no one can explain.

Up to you. If you want to stir things up it's she. If you want to keep the peace it's he.

They’re not anything to do with your sex, you’re right, because sex and gender are different things.

For a while I’ve not fully understood whether the GC didn’t acknowledge gender constructs as a thing at all, or whether they simply rejected their application. Do they not believe in gender, or do they reject being defined by it.

You’ve just answered that, I think, so thanks!