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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sibling in law

989 replies

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 18/06/2025 00:21

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with

People don’t usually get sacked for e.g. saying they’d rather not swear an oath on the Bible.

People have been sacked for saying that e.g. a rape crisis centre should be transparent about the sex of staff or that prisons should be single sex.

There have been some high profile cases in recent years, and the Conservatives belatedly realised it was politically advantageous to oppose Labour on this issue, but for a long time, it was only covered by a handful of female journalists, who paid a professional price.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2025 00:16

Oh well if you don’t actually get sent to hell physically it’s fine 🙄

Boiledbeetle · 18/06/2025 00:10

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:47

That’s fair enough, I’d probably just ignore them because you can’t send me to a hell I don’t believe in.

So you'd just be quiet and wouldn't say anything? In all the examples?

Let someone else shove their beliefs in my face and what? take it with a smile on my face?

Allow them to think that everyone shares their views and belief?

Allow someone to insist I ignore my own beliefs and wishes to acquiesce to them?

Yeah, that doesn't work for me.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:47

Boiledbeetle · 17/06/2025 23:20

If I'm walking through town and there is a street preacher that's fine he can say what he likes, but if he singles me out telling me to repent or I'll go to hell then I'll tell him bog off and his God doesn't exist and he is impinging on my right to quiet enjoyment of my life.

If a Muslim co worker at work wants to go to the office prayer room and pray no skin off my nose, but if a Muslim coworker tried to impose the rules of her religion on me or insists I go and pray then I'll tell her to bog off and her God doesn't exist as she is impinging on my right to not believe.

If a man thinks he's a woman and wants to be called Susan that's fine no skin off my nose, I'm known by more than one name, different people know me as different names. But if that man insists I agree he is a woman and refer to him as she and that I should accept him in my female only spaces I'll tell him to bog off and that he's a man.

I'll respect anyone's beliefs until they try to involve me or force me or insist I share their beliefs, then I'll tell them I don't.

That’s fair enough, I’d probably just ignore them because you can’t send me to a hell I don’t believe in.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 23:32

The equivalent of the trans movement, until very recently here and still in some countries, was that the street preacher could tell you to repent and you are going to hell Beetle and you’d have to agree because if not he could get you sacked, report you to the police for hate speech, who would take action, or set a mob of baying thugs on you. The police/CPS would turn a blind eye to that though.

Boiledbeetle · 17/06/2025 23:20

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

If I'm walking through town and there is a street preacher that's fine he can say what he likes, but if he singles me out telling me to repent or I'll go to hell then I'll tell him bog off and his God doesn't exist and he is impinging on my right to quiet enjoyment of my life.

If a Muslim co worker at work wants to go to the office prayer room and pray no skin off my nose, but if a Muslim coworker tried to impose the rules of her religion on me or insists I go and pray then I'll tell her to bog off and her God doesn't exist as she is impinging on my right to not believe.

If a man thinks he's a woman and wants to be called Susan that's fine no skin off my nose, I'm known by more than one name, different people know me as different names. But if that man insists I agree he is a woman and refer to him as she and that I should accept him in my female only spaces I'll tell him to bog off and that he's a man.

I'll respect anyone's beliefs until they try to involve me or force me or insist I share their beliefs, then I'll tell them I don't.

BarBellBarbie · 17/06/2025 23:16

I would respect their belief and use their preferred pronouns, but internally have my own thoughts. I would see no need to cause a falling out.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/06/2025 23:13

I think the difference is so obvious that the comment is probably just disingenuous. If it helps though, if I was required to pledge my allegiance to said god, or put my own rights second to pander to believers of that god or deny that not having a belief in that god was a valid position, I would absolutely have something to say about that too.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:08

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:03

Why do you think we have separate facilities for males and females? Have you ever even bothered to consider why?

Because some females feel safer in an environment where there are no males present, and no likelihood that they will be. For a variety of reasons, all of which are linked to privacy, dignity or safety.

Which still doesn’t mean that 100% of men would be violent if left unchecked. It means they enough of them have been to make some women want/need a separate space.

murasaki · 17/06/2025 23:08

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:02

If you deny a Schizophrenic man is Jesus, though he says he is, are you suggesting he "doesn't exist"?

People eXisT! As either a male human being, or a female human being. Not believing in a person's sexual fetishes or religious beliefs or schizophrenic delusions doesn't mean we think they don't 'eXiSsssst!'.

They exist. As human beings. That's it.

Well quite. I may well wish some people didn't exist but they do and there's nothing I can do about it.

So refusing to believe in some people's beliefs doesn't mean they don't exist as human beings. I just don't see them as they wish to be seen and never will. If Dp declared tomorrow that he was Napoleon, I wouldn't buy him an appropriate hat and declare him emperor of the house, I'd get him to the doctor pronto. And call his dad.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:06

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

Do these people's religious beliefs impact on others, the way trans metaphysical beliefs impact on females?

No.

That's the difference.

Coatsoff42 · 17/06/2025 23:06

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

It probably helps that you are allowed to say you don’t believe in a Muslim god. Which for a long time gender critical people were not allowed to do. No debate. Lose your job etc etc.

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:03

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:25

That’s also an interesting fact, but doesn’t imply that 95% of men are criminals. That’s quite different.

It also doesn’t imply that 100% of them have the capability to be if they just don’t control themselves, which is what the PP said.

Why do you think we have separate facilities for males and females? Have you ever even bothered to consider why?

TooSquaretobehip · 17/06/2025 23:02

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

If you deny a Schizophrenic man is Jesus, though he says he is, are you suggesting he "doesn't exist"?

People eXisT! As either a male human being, or a female human being. Not believing in a person's sexual fetishes or religious beliefs or schizophrenic delusions doesn't mean we think they don't 'eXiSsssst!'.

They exist. As human beings. That's it.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

JanesLittleGirl · 17/06/2025 23:00

@SleeplessInWherever

I have to be honest that I am impressed by your efforts to divorce sex from gender. However, that is all that they are. Play with words, concepts, identities, experiences et al as much as you like. The bottom line is that men are men and women are women.

Boiledbeetle · 17/06/2025 22:54

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

I don't believe there is validity in the belief of gender, it's not logically sound as it relies on a person's feelings and has no provable qualities. I also don't believe in the validity of religion for the same reasons.

HOWEVER I accept that other people may and do have totally out there indefinable and unprovable beliefs. So I accept some people think they are transgender in the same way that I accept that some people are nuns and think they are married to God.

Just because I don't share a person's belief doesn't mean I deny their existence or their choice to believe in something I may feel is ridiculous.

HousePlantEmergency · 17/06/2025 22:46

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

Ok.
I (personally) don't believe it's possible there's a god. Of any kind.
Yet - of course I acknowledge there are Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus etc etc.
Just because I don't believe in what they believe in doesn't equate to me thinking they don't 'exist'.
There are PLENTY of ideologies and sections of society that I don't relate to or feel affinity with. That doesn't mean they don't 'exist:'
It actually makes me cringe to type that. I feel like I'm 17 again, telling my mum she "just doesn't understand me!! 😭"

That would be patently absurd.

And it's absurd that you would suggest that.

Of course trans people exist - people who wish they were born another sex. And that's what it is, a wish.
It is not a green light to become part of a class you cannot "identify" into. It's already taken by the sex class that already inhabits it. Male or female.

Break the norm. Smash gender stereotypes. Stick your fingers up to people who tell you you should dress/act/behave in a certain way. I'll back you all the way.
But male/female spaces for safety and dignity are taken.
It's not hard.

marshmallowpuff · 17/06/2025 22:44

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.
Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

But “their existence in the context they recognise” is not the same factually as “their existence”, is it?

I might not believe that the Jews are God’s chosen people, or that Calvinists are the Elect, but I know Jewish people and Protestants exist. I might believe myself to be unusually talented and special, but someone who doesn’t think so still knows I exist. I know of plenty of people who believe things about themselves that I simply don’t share — all of them still exist.

Indeed, I’d love everyone to see me as the brilliant, fascinating, complex, beautiful, fatally prepossessing, exotic, intriguing (and thin) woman I am in my imagination; but sadly, life tells me that other people go about their business wholly unaware of this (and yet they still seem to think I exist nevertheless).

Believing you’re something you’ve imagined in your head must be shared by everyone else or they “don’t believe you exist” is the height of narcissistic solipsism. Despite what the trans rights ideologues think, it isn’t a human right for everyone to believe exactly what you believe, nor is your “existence” contingent on it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:31

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:25

That’s also an interesting fact, but doesn’t imply that 95% of men are criminals. That’s quite different.

It also doesn’t imply that 100% of them have the capability to be if they just don’t control themselves, which is what the PP said.

I think he's better placed to comment on what men are like than most of us here.

From a woman's point of view, it is clear that pretty much 100% of men are potential rapists, if we discount, for example, men who are quadriplegic or in a persistent vegetative state.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:29

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

Well if they recognise themselves as being the opposite sex to the one they actually are, obviously we are not going to agree with that.

Not believing in gender doesn't amount to denying trans people's existence, any more than not believing in God doesn't amount to denying the existence of Christians.

We just don't share their beliefs, that's all.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:18

That's nice, but almost 99% of all sexual offences are committed by men, and 95% of the prison population are men.

That’s also an interesting fact, but doesn’t imply that 95% of men are criminals. That’s quite different.

It also doesn’t imply that 100% of them have the capability to be if they just don’t control themselves, which is what the PP said.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:23

HousePlantEmergency · 17/06/2025 21:06

Honestly I'm just in complete despair.

No one here wishes bad will towards anyone.
Trans people need additional provision and support.
That is completely different to admitting them into a sex class that is immutable. Male or female.

And no one denies they exist, for goodness sake. Such a ridiculous teenage phrase.
Of course they exist.

No one has carte blanche to demand whatever they want purely because they 'exist'.
Utterly ridiculous.

Honestly I believe some people do deny their existence.

If you don’t believe in the validity of gender, you can’t believe that it’s possible to be trans gender, which therefore denies the existence of whole groups of people.

Certainly their existence in the context they recognise.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:18

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:14

Any man can be dangerous if they just don’t control themselves?

Well, you are one, and I can’t speak on the male behalf. But what a pessimistic way to view the situation.

Porn use isn’t a uniquely male experience, and I’m not sure the whole of the male population does have the capability or inbuilt desire to not “behave well.”

That's nice, but almost 99% of all sexual offences are committed by men, and 95% of the prison population are men.

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:14

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/06/2025 21:03

As a man, I think that's a little naïve. A bad apple can spread to those it is in contact with. Many men are vulnerable to corruption, both sexual and misuse of power. Men's sexuality can be difficult to control, and I think many women don't understand how much effort it can take to behave well when your biological urges are at their most demanding. Porn, ubiquitous and easy to access, tends to discourage self control. Changes to societal expectations, while often at least partially justified because society used to be very rigid, can make behaviour "acceptable" that is damaging. And who is most vulnerable to damage? Well, lots of people, including some men, but including virtually all women.

The fact (I claim) that men are easily led astray doesn't absolve us at all of our bad behaviour - we are responsible for our actions. But I don't like to see people minimising how dangerous any man can be if his self control is lowered.

Any man can be dangerous if they just don’t control themselves?

Well, you are one, and I can’t speak on the male behalf. But what a pessimistic way to view the situation.

Porn use isn’t a uniquely male experience, and I’m not sure the whole of the male population does have the capability or inbuilt desire to not “behave well.”