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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans sibling in law

989 replies

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2025 17:28

Ymiryboo · 18/06/2025 15:14

*he

This is the OP’s family, not yours. She’ll speak as she sees fit. This is also the feminist board and most of us prefer to be honest.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2025 17:27

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 18/06/2025 17:23

I haven't heard of orthodox Jews blurting out over shabbat meals to such converts- you aren't Jewish.

FWIW "Jews for Jesus" are a better comparison than acctual converts to other forms of Judaism.

Actually there isn't a lot you can do. Your SiL will do as she do do, and there's no doing anything about it. I would keep in the background and keep your powder dry as much as possible. If she wants to go and live with grandad in Germany well she can, it may be good for both of them.

Aim to support your husband and his feelings rather than doing much about it yourself. This is his sister.

Edited

Genuinely some of the wisest advice on this thread.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 18/06/2025 17:23

I haven't heard of orthodox Jews blurting out over shabbat meals to such converts- you aren't Jewish.

FWIW "Jews for Jesus" are a better comparison than acctual converts to other forms of Judaism.

Actually there isn't a lot you can do. Your SiL will do as she do do, and there's no doing anything about it. I would keep in the background and keep your powder dry as much as possible. If she wants to go and live with grandad in Germany well she can, it may be good for both of them.

Aim to support your husband and his feelings rather than doing much about it yourself. This is his sister.

SleeplessInWherever · 18/06/2025 16:58

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/06/2025 10:42

I apologise if I seem to be picking fault with everything you say. I actually think you are doing a good job of standing up for your views, and you are giving me things to think about.

Once again, however, my experience doesn't entirely match what you said here. Only last week, I was in a shared kitchen with someone who casually mentioned, in some context or other (not totally out of the blue) that he thinks all religion is nonsense. He knows that I have a different worldview. I don't think he was deliberately aiming at me, so I'm not offended.

When I "misgender" someone by using third person pronouns naturally and subconsciously, to refer to them based on how I perceive them which is as a sexed person, male or female, not as a "feminine" or "masculine" person, I am not disrespecting their worldview. That they think I am, shows how fragile their worldview is. Or if they see it as a personal insult, they demonstrate that their self esteem needs work.

No, it’s fine - I’ve had far worse.

Personally, I wouldn’t have told you I thought religion was nonsense if I knew you were religious. I appreciate you took it well, and don’t mind, but that’s fortunate because it’s rude.

I appreciate what you’re saying towards the end of your comment too, but my world view and self esteem isn’t fragile enough to be affected by someone else’s.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2025 16:22

RedToothBrush · 14/06/2025 21:56

I have a massive problem with the ghoulish 'allies' who berate family members.

They can fuck of to the far side of fuck and keep on fucking off.

They are using vulnerable people to demonstrate how woke and right on they are.

It's reprehensible.

And another bump.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 16:04

rhetorical question ….i know how fucking petty you can get

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 16:03

Ymiryboo · 18/06/2025 15:14

*he

Do you get some sort of kick out of this…how fucking petty can you get

Ymiryboo · 18/06/2025 15:14

Primrose86 · 18/06/2025 12:57

My sibling in law has given up on nhs help. Tbh my dh doesn't use the nhs either, he goes straight to private albeit he has insurance.

My dh and his siblings all have childhood trauma. The other 2 zipped off to Israel on programs (they have since moved onto other countries as they got married/partnered up) as soon as they graduated from uni and barely come home (think london reminds them of too much traumatic memories), dh did a masters in a European country and only returned to London on account of me and we managed to buy a flat here which allowed dh come to terms with staying in London- new life, new space and own terms and all of that. The youngest probably does see her trans journey as a way to move overseas like her siblings. But as she is so isolated and lacks qualifications she can't do what her siblings did- the siblings program in Israel involved internships and my dh's European stint involved completing a degree. She can only move to places with family members as she never lived alone before.

*he

Primrose86 · 18/06/2025 12:57

Ymiryboo · 18/06/2025 12:46

I am finding it hard to believe this is true because he would know that hormones and surgery are available on the NHS albeit at an extremely slow pace.

If it is real you should use the pronouns and name they choose, that simple, though many on here will make it seem much harder and make alsorts of hate filled comments so if you're genuinely looking gor support/advice I'd go else where

My sibling in law has given up on nhs help. Tbh my dh doesn't use the nhs either, he goes straight to private albeit he has insurance.

My dh and his siblings all have childhood trauma. The other 2 zipped off to Israel on programs (they have since moved onto other countries as they got married/partnered up) as soon as they graduated from uni and barely come home (think london reminds them of too much traumatic memories), dh did a masters in a European country and only returned to London on account of me and we managed to buy a flat here which allowed dh come to terms with staying in London- new life, new space and own terms and all of that. The youngest probably does see her trans journey as a way to move overseas like her siblings. But as she is so isolated and lacks qualifications she can't do what her siblings did- the siblings program in Israel involved internships and my dh's European stint involved completing a degree. She can only move to places with family members as she never lived alone before.

OP posts:
Ymiryboo · 18/06/2025 12:46

Primrose86 · 12/06/2025 18:40

DH's sibling has just come out as a man. She is 26 and autistic, lives at home with mum, spends life on the Internet, got kicked out of school at 16 etc etc She has plans to go overseas and transition in germany where apparently you can get surgeries on the public health system while living with her grandpa. Her mum is fully supportive of this.

How should I react to all this. Should I start referring to him as my brother in law? What usually happens after people come out. I assume they progress to hormones and surgery but honestly based on what I read, Germany is quite resistant to health tourists who never paid in even if they are citizens. Are people really happy identifying as another gender when they wouldn't look like the other gender?

I am finding it hard to believe this is true because he would know that hormones and surgery are available on the NHS albeit at an extremely slow pace.

If it is real you should use the pronouns and name they choose, that simple, though many on here will make it seem much harder and make alsorts of hate filled comments so if you're genuinely looking gor support/advice I'd go else where

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/06/2025 11:05

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2025 00:55

'just ignore them'

You know that thing we've been staying throughout this thread about over privileged and out of touch?

Well yeah, that.

☝️

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 18/06/2025 10:58

Boiledbeetle · 17/06/2025 23:20

If I'm walking through town and there is a street preacher that's fine he can say what he likes, but if he singles me out telling me to repent or I'll go to hell then I'll tell him bog off and his God doesn't exist and he is impinging on my right to quiet enjoyment of my life.

If a Muslim co worker at work wants to go to the office prayer room and pray no skin off my nose, but if a Muslim coworker tried to impose the rules of her religion on me or insists I go and pray then I'll tell her to bog off and her God doesn't exist as she is impinging on my right to not believe.

If a man thinks he's a woman and wants to be called Susan that's fine no skin off my nose, I'm known by more than one name, different people know me as different names. But if that man insists I agree he is a woman and refer to him as she and that I should accept him in my female only spaces I'll tell him to bog off and that he's a man.

I'll respect anyone's beliefs until they try to involve me or force me or insist I share their beliefs, then I'll tell them I don't.

This, all day long. It’s the force teaming that is the issue, but it’s pretty obvious the poster is well aware of it and is being disingenuous.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/06/2025 10:42

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

I apologise if I seem to be picking fault with everything you say. I actually think you are doing a good job of standing up for your views, and you are giving me things to think about.

Once again, however, my experience doesn't entirely match what you said here. Only last week, I was in a shared kitchen with someone who casually mentioned, in some context or other (not totally out of the blue) that he thinks all religion is nonsense. He knows that I have a different worldview. I don't think he was deliberately aiming at me, so I'm not offended.

When I "misgender" someone by using third person pronouns naturally and subconsciously, to refer to them based on how I perceive them which is as a sexed person, male or female, not as a "feminine" or "masculine" person, I am not disrespecting their worldview. That they think I am, shows how fragile their worldview is. Or if they see it as a personal insult, they demonstrate that their self esteem needs work.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/06/2025 10:26

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:25

That’s also an interesting fact, but doesn’t imply that 95% of men are criminals. That’s quite different.

It also doesn’t imply that 100% of them have the capability to be if they just don’t control themselves, which is what the PP said.

Do you seriously think there is anyone, male or female, who is not capable of criminal behaviour? I don't think I agree with Agatha Christie, who repeatedly said that we are all potential murderers. I can't conceive of even wanting to murder someone. And I can't imagine violently sexually assaulting someone. But I have had my rights recited to me by a policeman over an alleged traffic offence (more a matter of negligence than a deliberate decision to break the law).

And I wasn't just talking about clearly criminal behaviour. There are sexually motivated acts which would be very unlikely to result in conviction but are still damaging to women.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/06/2025 10:15

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 22:14

Any man can be dangerous if they just don’t control themselves?

Well, you are one, and I can’t speak on the male behalf. But what a pessimistic way to view the situation.

Porn use isn’t a uniquely male experience, and I’m not sure the whole of the male population does have the capability or inbuilt desire to not “behave well.”

I can't speak for all men either - some would disagree with me. However, I have seen enough, and experienced enough, to be sure that it is risky to assume that a man who appears to be safe will always be safe. How do damaging affairs start? Just talking about heterosexual ones, obviously a woman is also involved, so bad and risky behaviour is not confined to men. For example, flirting can be fairly innocent, but it is risky behaviour if the consequences of continuing are significant. Men don't have the same in-built concern about becoming pregnant, do they? So their barriers tend to be lower. The consequences are less obvious, less in our minds, even if we have been socialised to respect women and to behave well towards them.

One of the effects of testosterone is to reduce the inhibitions of risk - so young men, unused to the levels of testosterone they are experiencing, behave more riskily, for example when driving. They can feel invincible. Their bodies have rapidly become stronger. Physical capabilities and urges are both suddenly powerful, and without strong societal boundaries, what is there to restrain them? It takes time to bring those urges under control, and not every man wants to. And even with older men, life circumstances can sometimes affect their judgement and lower the barriers to selfish and risky behaviour. Mid life crises, excessive workloads, finding oneself in an unaccustomed position of power or even being adulated. Look at the behaviour of rock and pop stars, surrounded be admiring and adoring young women. It often seems to go to their heads and they ignore whatever values they held.

You can see with scandals in churches that power within a group setting can override strongly held principles and beliefs, even when someone wasn't always a wolf in sheep's clothing. We are vulnerable to primitive urges and to the drug of power.

None of this excuses us. But we are flawed and imperfect people.

SerafinasGoose · 18/06/2025 10:12

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 08:19

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.
For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

yeah i don’t do anything like that to anyone, except people who think trump is the mutts nuts and that anyone who didn’t get the covid jab is a ‘pureblood’ and even then i wouldn’t say they’re ridiculous….I am thinking it though! (i will absolutely change the subject if they want to talk about it, it won’t end well)

Well, yes. It's an entirely disingenous false equivalence. And if it isn't, the least I can say it that it's not a very intelligent argument.

If my Muslim colleagues were demanding that I personally wear a hijab because the sight of my hair is disgusting; that I call myself by a Muslim name to indicate my adherence to the faith; that I ensconce myself in a period hut because my menstruation was offensive (compare the Christian practice of churching women's 'unclean' bodies after childbirth before they can be let out into the community), then yes: I think I'd be protesting very loudly that I was a non-believer and that these are not practices I follow. This, incidentally, is my response to any exhortation that I should announce 'my' pronouns and have a 'cis' label slapped onto me to which I do not consent.

But my Muslim colleagues do none of these things. They have the right to expect that I do not insult their prophet, which ofc, I would not do. It would serve no purpose as this would not in any way enhance or uphold my rights, either in terms of the protected category of sex or that of religious belief. Otherwise, they simply get on with their day and exercise the basic freedom to practice their faith as they wish. They are not encroaching on the protections of other groups, trying to police my speech, or demanding that I cede over my individual or categorical rights to them.

Compare aggressive trans rights activism - which does do all these things and openly threatens and intimidates women who will not comply. Aside from unintelligent, the comparison reeks of Islamophobia.

its2346 · 18/06/2025 08:24

AidaP · 12/06/2025 19:10

No, that's crossdressing.

But I am not here to educate transphobia central, just offering help to OP who seems to genuinely want to help and learn. So... Bye, keep arguing against DSM, Human Rights, UK law and everything else.

Genuine question … how do you know who is cross dressing and who is transgender if both are strangers to you?

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 08:21

It seems to be one extreme to the other on this subject…lots of posters saying that if someone thinks that you can’t change sex that you hate trans people and don’t think they exist etc

oh and telling me what i think and do when they absolutely no idea whatsoever

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/06/2025 08:19

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.
For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

yeah i don’t do anything like that to anyone, except people who think trump is the mutts nuts and that anyone who didn’t get the covid jab is a ‘pureblood’ and even then i wouldn’t say they’re ridiculous….I am thinking it though! (i will absolutely change the subject if they want to talk about it, it won’t end well)

VagueVogue · 18/06/2025 08:16

I'd always refer to someone by their chosen gender and name out of basic respect and smooth relationships. It doesn't mean you privately see them the way they see themselves. Someone autistic of course feels a disconnect and conflict with their identity. It's criminal that they're being set on a path of lifetime medalicalisation. An unhappy young woman searching for answers isn't gonna get any playing dress up as a man.

TheKeatingFive · 18/06/2025 07:38

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 18/06/2025 06:34

Do you think we're walking up to trans people and telling them they're ridiculous?

Of course we aren't. If they're just getting on with their day, we're just getting on with ours.

If a Christian was telling you that you must believe in what they believe in or else we're discriminating against them, denying their existence, causing them offence, removing their rights or whatever then of course I would be telling them that I found their views ridiculous.

If a Muslim walked up to me and told me I had to give up my rights because they wanted them for their beliefs that I do not hold, of course I'd be telling them to do one.

Women are (rightly) up in arms because that's what's happening right now. We're being minimised and expected to be quiet and just accept the belief that men are now women and therefore we have to be uncomfortable and at risk, AGAIN, after having fought hard to get out rights they now want to violate.

Give trans people rights. Let them go about their day. Just leave women with the rights we've fought for and let us go about our day.

Give trans people rights. Let them go about their day. Just leave women with the rights we've fought for and let us go about our day.

And of course transpeople already have the the rights that everyone else has, so job done on that front.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 18/06/2025 06:34

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:02

I don’t believe that many of those here who rightfully point out that they don’t share views or belief systems with Christianity, but still acknowledge it’s existence, respond to it in the same way.

For example, if you don’t believe in God (which I don’t), are you allowing those who do to get on with their religious day, or telling them that they’re wrong and ridiculous and you don’t agree etc etc?

I don’t see anywhere near the same level of debate, certainly not in the mainstream, around any other viewpoints that people disagree with.

I’m not Muslim, but I’m also not going into work tomorrow to tell my Muslim colleague that Allah isn’t real, he’s silly to belief he is and should just get a grip. Because I both recognise his existence as a Muslim, and respect it.

Do you think we're walking up to trans people and telling them they're ridiculous?

Of course we aren't. If they're just getting on with their day, we're just getting on with ours.

If a Christian was telling you that you must believe in what they believe in or else we're discriminating against them, denying their existence, causing them offence, removing their rights or whatever then of course I would be telling them that I found their views ridiculous.

If a Muslim walked up to me and told me I had to give up my rights because they wanted them for their beliefs that I do not hold, of course I'd be telling them to do one.

Women are (rightly) up in arms because that's what's happening right now. We're being minimised and expected to be quiet and just accept the belief that men are now women and therefore we have to be uncomfortable and at risk, AGAIN, after having fought hard to get out rights they now want to violate.

Give trans people rights. Let them go about their day. Just leave women with the rights we've fought for and let us go about our day.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/06/2025 06:30

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:47

That’s fair enough, I’d probably just ignore them because you can’t send me to a hell I don’t believe in.

Unfortunately you can't "just ignore" a trans identifying man who is sexually assaulting you in a women's toilet.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 18/06/2025 06:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 17/06/2025 22:29

Well if they recognise themselves as being the opposite sex to the one they actually are, obviously we are not going to agree with that.

Not believing in gender doesn't amount to denying trans people's existence, any more than not believing in God doesn't amount to denying the existence of Christians.

We just don't share their beliefs, that's all.

Christian's exist???

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2025 00:55

SleeplessInWherever · 17/06/2025 23:47

That’s fair enough, I’d probably just ignore them because you can’t send me to a hell I don’t believe in.

'just ignore them'

You know that thing we've been staying throughout this thread about over privileged and out of touch?

Well yeah, that.