Non-binary child major rupture in relationship

I really, really dislike describing anyone as being mutilated, especially procedures which many women have electively for all sorts of reasons. It's a meme that gender critical women seem to indulge in which seems absolutely tied into objectification. See also 'ruined'.

Sorry to hear this. I would stay open minded, and patient. For reasons I won't go into, I didn't see or speak to my dad for a year or so when I was a young adult But we patched up the relationship. It's never been fully recovered from my perspective if I am honest, due to what was said and done, but he probably thinks it has. Life changes and moves on.

It's very sad and difficult when family relationships are strained but, without meaning to sound flippant or cold hearted, a lot of things in life are sad and difficult. I would urge focussing on your own well being and a certain (albeit limited) amount of acceptance and letting go in order to stay sane.

If your child is 24, then the time for you to have a voice in this decision has passed. While our preference as parents might be for our children to love themselves as they are, that isn’t always going to happen. If your child proceeds with the surgery, I would provide logistical support just as you would with any other surgery.

I do think it is fair to say that you draw the line at providing financial support for any expenses incurred during the process. Part of committing to the surgery should be saving up to deal with those expenses.

if your child were still a minor, my advice would be very different. I would suggest finding a therapist who believes in treating the whole child, not letting them use gender ideology as a distraction from other issues. Then if that child still needed to proceed when they were an adult, I would feel more confident that the correct choice was being made.

regardless, your child is already an adult so you have to step back. Unless doing something truly dangerous, you can’t intervene.

This could be it. Maybe I'm reading your DD wrong, but she comes across to me like someone who has doubts, but can't give herself permission to express them. Subconsciously I think she might want someone to save her from her own 'decision'. Maybe your role, in her mind, is to be the evil parent who stops her having the surgery. Then she can blame you to all her friends.

"Oh, I can't get top surgery, my mum won't give me the money."

Like a teenager who doesn't really want to do drugs, but is too afraid of peer pressure to tell their friends that, so invokes the spectre of Mum and Dad instead. Maybe you're onto something.

It's tough, with her being an adult. I wonder if there's any way you could help her get therapy? Specifically to work on her assertiveness and sense of self. Something targeted to that. You'd have to find someone willing to leave all the trans stuff at the door, which is hard. But if you could, and if you could talk her into it / pay for her to go, it might help her.

Thank you. This is exactly how I see it. Someone had to fall on their sword, to give this kid a chance. And if it didn't work out, they could live without me.

I didn't enjoy it. I can be very cutting and academic and even have a laugh sometimes on here. But debating this issue on a forum is very different to debating it with a mentally unstable young person you don't want to see in pain. Someone you're terrified is being sucked into the cult. I said earlier it's like defusing a bomb. That's it. That's how it feels.

It cost me the relationship in the end. I think they struggled, knowing I'd always been there for them and had their best interests at heart. They knew deep down that I wasn't a bad person. But when the whole world was telling them one thing and I was the only voice saying the opposite, it was easy to think I'd been misled. That I was the problem.

From the way they were talking by the end, I think they genuinely believed I'd been radicalised by Mumsnet. They were enraged they couldn't talk me round. That I wouldn't fit into a neat little box of good or evil. The cognitive dissonance was too much for them to process and they ended up lashing out at me. I knew they were trying to drive me away and I resisted as long as could, but there came a point where I just had to walk away.

Whoops, you're right. I remember writing it but then rewrote it and must have left it off.

You're right that it is a big, practically irreversible change and that decision would not come lightly. However, I'm sure their child knows that, and can make an informed decision. I don't think people are undergoing expensive, time-consuming surgeries if they are not certain this is something they want - similar to other cosmetic surgeries. If they were being forced by "the ideology" to do this, would they not have done it already? This hesitation implies that they are properly thinking through the consequences.

I think at the end of the day, it is their body, so it is their choice. If you want to keep your relationship with your child, I would strongly recommend talking to them, and trying to understand. None of us online have ever met your child; we don't know what they're thinking. They are old enough to get the surgery without parental consent, yet they wait for your permission. This shows they value your opinion, and perhaps are afraid of upsetting you.

I think listening and trying to understand your child's perspective on this would go a long way to fixing your relationship. Even just accepting that they feel like this, even if it's not something you support, would be a step forwards.

That was a kind and brave thing to do @SnoopyPajamas Parents get stuck between honesty and estrangement but maybe someone else in the family, someone less close, can say these things and if it all blows up at least the young person is still talking to their parents.

This is pretty accurate. It goes against my integrity to lie to someone I love, especially if that lie will cause them harm. I couldn't look myself in the face if I went along with what was easy instead of what was right.

So, yes, I was staying true to myself. But to answer your question @Bobbymoore123 : it wasn't about me. It was about my loved one. No-one else was going to say anything. Even the people who disagreed didn't want to rock the boat and be attacked as hateful bigots. No-one was willing to do the hard thing. They all thought doctors and mental health services would sort it out, and when those institutions turned out to be completely captured, they didn't know what to do. Most doubted themselves. Some just didn't care enough to be the target of a teenager's misplaced vitriol. Who needs the stress, right? Not my circus, not my monkeys. That was the attitude. #bekind. No-one else stepped up to the plate, and no-one stood up in support when I did.

A teenager doesn't know they're in an echo chamber. They don't understand adults are trying to keep their jobs, or have an easier life, or whatever it might be. They look around and they see everyone else in their personal universe parroting the party line, and they think it must be true. How are they supposed to even know there's another point of view? Schools, doctors, friends, the media. Everyone is in on the lie. Have you ever seen the Truman Show? That's what life is like for these kids, and they don't even know it.

You asked what I achieved. Maybe nothing, in the end. But maybe I sowed a seed of doubt. Maybe they'd never admit it, but our conversations are still in the back of their head somewhere, and are holding them back. We're not in contact anymore, but like OP's daughter, I know they haven't had surgery. They're wavering. Maybe that's down to me. Maybe it isn't. I'll never know, but at least I tried.

@WarmOchreEagle You missed 'safe' off your list; "the main goals should be keeping your children SAFE, happy and fed and loved;", safe from an ideology that would actively encourage them to mutilate their body if they want to truly be the unique person they feel they are as though it were the same as getting a mohican (colours can be changed, hair will grow back), a tattoo (can be lasered, changed, or covered) a nose piercing (can wear/ not wear stud, hole will close over time).
It's not the same.

And 80 can't tell 50 - but that's a whole other thread!

It is indeed difficult that we are older and know now what we did not know then: that we change immensely as we go through life and that what makes sense when we are 20 will seem ridiculous when we are 50. But 50 cannot tell 20 - that is a simple fact unfortunately. And therein lies the dilemma.

My mother suggested I have my bunions operated on when I was 24 because they are fugly and i think possibly vecause i was refusing to wear court shoes vecause they were so painful, and paid for a private consultation. He was quite happy to do it. I was instinctively suspicious of commercial medicine, asked around and decided against.

I still have awful bunions in my 50s. But the advice is pretty much the same; unless they're causing you significant pain, don't do it. Mine have never hurt. And the surgery doesn't last forever. Having them done at 24 would probably have meant I would have needed at least one repeat by now. And who cares if I have diamond-shaped feet? They're ugly according to the mainstream but I'm quite fond of them. I may not have been able to wear what my mum thought of as appropriate shoes for a woman but thank goodness that never mattered.

Having a mastectomy because you are non-binary is the strongest possible statement that noticeable breasts=woman. It strongly supports the patriarchal dictate that your tits are what's important about you as a woman and that tits off=not a woman and being liberated from being a woman. And of course you can find a surgeon who will do it. You can find surgeons who will do anything. There was that body modification thing about having surgical tongue splits a few years back, which as a dysphagia therapist made me really angry.

Having said all that, I'm angry with the culture and the surgeons, not the poor sods who just need to get through their days. If your child feels they must do this, then they will. Just don't pay for it.

I know. I cringe at what I thought I understood as a 20 year old. I’d benefited from about 150 years of women’s rights campaigning and was totally oblivious. The path through school and uni and early work is well trodden. Also access to basic things like bank accounts without a male relative to give permission. I thought feminism was unnecessary and wanted to distance myself from it. Only as I’ve got older have I understood how different things might have been and how much is left to do. The confidence of youth affects us all and most of us realise this as we get older - disappointments or regrets are inevitable eye openers. Also being older is liberating as we can speak up with less risk.

Sorry for the sidetrack OP. I’ve got some thoughts but will have to pop back later. Your situation sounds very difficult

I think if they are 24 you can only back away from the subject unless they bring it up. My approach has been simple - I do not fully understand all this but I love you and will always be on your team.

The problem is that you are dealing with two things:

• your much-loved DD whom you do not want unhappy or mutilated by surgery
• a political movement that muddies the waters of what is basically a very personal matter.

You will have your entirely valid opinions and feelings but it is best to keep these to yourself in the same way that you would if your DD were a young Mum bringing up their child in a way that you thought odd.

Hang on in there. At some point you will develop a new relationship with them that is not what you had envisaged, but hopefully is at least OK for both of you.

FFS, this nonsense has to stop! I think that any medical professional involved in cutting off healthy tissue when the patient has diagnosed mental health problems, should be struck off for breaking the hippocratic oath.

How is cutting off a woman’s heathy breasts different to cutting off their legs or their hands because the patient says they’ll be happier if they were actually disabled?

Maybe they should have a lobotomy instead like in the olden days?? 🤦🏻‍♀️

I know it may be hard to accept that they are taking a path in life different from the one you expected for them, but as parents, the main goals should be keeping your children happy and fed and loved; if your child wishes to get top surgery there's not much you can do to stop them, nor do I think you should if this is something that will make them feel better about themselves and their body. You say you can see the psychological pain that they are in - evidently this is something they would benefit from. Besides, they are now an adult, no longer living with you; they have the autonomy to make their own decisions, even if it's not something you fully understand.

Try talking to them about what they want to achieve with their transition, without accusation or guilt. You may not fully understand why your child is doing this, but I would say a little respect and support goes a long way.

I cannot imagine agreeing with a loved one that the earth is flat just to keep them happy.

For me it feels more like having a loved one who believes they can fly. Should I agree that they should jump from a first floor window to keep them happy?

Many of the same issues that lead to anorexia. We really do need better understanding of this as a mental health condition.

@Bobbymoore123 you asked what did it achieve…hopefully @SnoopyPajamas will answer but I hope it’s ok to give my tuppence worth….

I imagine that it allowed Snoopy to stay rooted in reality and true to herself and to live her life knowing that she did what she felt was in the best interests of her loved one.

I cannot imagine agreeing with a loved one that the earth is flat just to keep them happy.

In the same way I cannot imagine agreeing with a loved one that they have an inner gendered essence and that that means serious surgery is needed.

From a mildly historic perspective the discussion of non binary reminds me of the style and identity debates of lesbians in the 1980s and 90s when androgyny was all the rage. To dress like a lesbian was to have short hair, little wire-rimmed specs, a white boxy tee shirt, a blazer, jeans and doc marten boots.

While I signed up to the docs, shoes rather than boots, the rest wasn’t for me and in the community I was eyed a tad suspiciously. Odd, since being same-sexed attracted to me had very little to do with how I presented on the outside.

The great thing about the fashion side was that you could row back on the uniform and many did as the years passed. My fear with the advance of cosmetic techniques is that an identity statement can now be permanent. Just because you can, does not mean you should.

With our teen kids, I have said have at it, but nothing permanent, because life. And there is nothing more inevitable than change.

I met someone with body dysmorphic disorder, after they attempted suicide. They had paid for their own (extensive) plastic surgery. I always wonder why one type of dysmorphia gets free plastic surgery, and one doesn’t.
I still think you can do what you like to yourself, if you want to pay for it, but it’s not for the NHS.

Gosh. Straight to surgery, no prolonged psychotherapeutic input? That is so irresponsible on the part of the surgeon.

That's exactly my view. It's heartbreaking.