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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thoughts on what I’m writing?

83 replies

Historyguy · 10/06/2025 00:03

I am trying to write a novel but it’s pissing off two women I know.

The problem they have is my villain, Abigail Williams (she’s a real person who was used in the Crucible, but given the fact that she really did exist, she’s fair game).

She will be 40 because the novel is set in 1720, as she was only 11 or 12 in the real witch trials.

At this point, the money she stole will have gotten her far in life and now she’s a wealthy widow of a merchant in Barbados.

She continues to do what she did as a child, create moral panics and mass hysteria to get innocents killed (now they are her enemies she’s framing as pirates).

her greatest nemesis is a fictional daughter of Sarah Osborne that I invented. Abigail will try to get her hung for piracy.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
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Grammarnut · 11/06/2025 22:43

I don't see that Abigail is vindictive, only manipulated by adults around her who have various axes to grind and are using a witchcraft panic to grind them. I don't see why she would re-enact a part which she played as a child. Unless you are depicting her as a psychopath - a possible interpretation from what Miller did, not historical afaik - which is fine if that's what you want to do.
I don't get the idea at all that making a woman an unpleasant villain is misogynistic. Saying it is appears to me of the same ilk as saying all ethnic minorities (except one, I suspect) must always be portrayed as the good guys. It is misogynistic to suggest women cannot be unpleasant villains IMHO (I have one who is murderous - is that misogynistic?).
Ignore your friends. Write what you want to write - it sounds fun.

CautiousLurker01 · 11/06/2025 22:15

WarriorN · 11/06/2025 21:45

<books tickets to see the crucible in order to gain context for a thread on mumsnet>

Me too!

WarriorN · 11/06/2025 21:45

<books tickets to see the crucible in order to gain context for a thread on mumsnet>

Igmum · 11/06/2025 21:28

WagnersFourthSymphony · 10/06/2025 01:00

I dunno. Maybe my view is skewed by similar asymmetric relationships I knew were going on at the time, but I always saw it as a play written from the man's point of view and thought maybe a teenage kid got carried away and maybe John Proctor wasn't as innocent as all that.

This. The Crucible is very male. Teenage girls are evil and it’s the fine upstanding family men and a beloved white haired old lady who bear the brunt. It doesn’t even touch on witch trials as a means of controlling women. I’d be concerned that your narrative simply extends this patriarchal re-reading to ‘bad girls grow into bad women’. It isn’t far from that to misogyny. Yes you are in danger of crossing this line.

DrJump · 11/06/2025 10:30

WinterTrees · 10/06/2025 21:12

Also worth bearing in mind that you can't copyright an idea so don't be surprised if one of the clever women you're tapping for insight here takes this premise and writes a subtle, nuanced, multi-layered story about what became of Abigail Williams.

Oh I would read that!

PlasticAcrobat · 11/06/2025 08:59

Historyguy · 10/06/2025 19:32

Shiuld I just not write this?

it’s clearly getting a lot of people ticked off

This is so weird. Just write the blimmin book!

If the characterisation is bad and sexist it will tick feminists off. If it isn't, it won't, especially if no one reads it, which is the fate of most novels.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 10/06/2025 21:13

‘Give me feedback on my book idea’

’No, not that feedback’

titchy · 10/06/2025 21:12

Historyguy · 10/06/2025 19:32

Shiuld I just not write this?

it’s clearly getting a lot of people ticked off

Dude - do what you want. You don’t need anyone’s permission. If it’s crap you won’t get a publisher/sales. If it’s good - great. If it’s a load of sexist twaddle and gets you a fuckton of criticism - own it.

Why are you even posting here?

WinterTrees · 10/06/2025 21:12

Also worth bearing in mind that you can't copyright an idea so don't be surprised if one of the clever women you're tapping for insight here takes this premise and writes a subtle, nuanced, multi-layered story about what became of Abigail Williams.

Fossilgreen · 10/06/2025 21:05

Why aren’t you on a writing forum asking these questions? There’s loads around.

WinterTrees · 10/06/2025 20:56

Do you have an agent or an editor? This is a conversation you should be having with them instead of putting your idea on a forum that has 14 million users while you're still at the working it out stage.

OofyProsser2 · 10/06/2025 20:46

OP, just write it. Your main issues are getting it written and whether it’s any good, not whether a bunch of people you don’t know like the subject.

DiamondThrone · 10/06/2025 20:37

OP, try not to be so needy. If you want to write the book, write it. Don't ask for constant feedback and validation.

It's like baby names - everyone will have an opinion, it doesn't mean any of them are "right" or "wrong". Just do your thing.

DrJump · 10/06/2025 20:34

Look it's been a while since I studied The Crucible but isn't the driving point of it that the government of the time were conducting communism trails. Surely then what we get is that Abigail and all the girls are victims of the ruling class trying to rid it it's self of an imagined enemy.

Why not just make up a character? As historical references are clearly not important to you or the story. You need a villain just write one.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/06/2025 19:55

I’m going to engage once more on the assumption that you are asking all this in good faith.

Here’s what I understand:

You need a villain. You chose a woman, and chose to make her one-, maybe two-dimensional. Ok, so far so Disney evil step mother - if she’s entertainingly written I could potentially suspend my disbelief.

However, where you have gone wrong is to choose to make her a real woman, one that has been studied, and widely written about. That person is, in the minds of anyone who knows who she is, already 3-dimensional — people have hypothesised about why she did what she did, they have ideas about her character already. You can’t un-3-dimension her without looking like you are trivialising her.

Add to that the fact that you are a male writer, the act of trivialising and diminishing an actual female person in order to create a bit-character that only exists to motivate your protagonist, makes you come across as completely misogynistic. You may not intend it that way, but that is what your readers are seeing.

nocoolnamesleft · 10/06/2025 19:40

Lowther was a plantation owner (inherited from his first wife I believe). I have no problem with you painting slave owners as also evil in other ways.

alsoFanOfNaomi · 10/06/2025 19:38

Historyguy · 10/06/2025 19:32

Shiuld I just not write this?

it’s clearly getting a lot of people ticked off

Yeah, don't write it. Sounds as though it wouldn't be good for readers nor good for you, which makes it a waste of time or worse.

(If you have a strongly negative reaction to that, perhaps it will help you to understand more about why you want to write it. If not, go and write something more interesting!)

Coatsoff42 · 10/06/2025 19:37

Historyguy · 10/06/2025 19:36

Someone once asked me what Jack Sparrow was like in real life.

dead serious

Edited

Someone once asked me if there was fat in cheese. Needless to say that person was overweight.

Historyguy · 10/06/2025 19:36

Coatsoff42 · 10/06/2025 19:34

@ErrolTheDragon Ah, it’s just me and people I know who are dunces then. I’ve not seen the crucible. I always seem to know the least cultured people.
Consider me The UK General Public.

Edited

Someone once asked me what Jack Sparrow was like in real life.

dead serious

OP posts:
Coatsoff42 · 10/06/2025 19:34

@ErrolTheDragon Ah, it’s just me and people I know who are dunces then. I’ve not seen the crucible. I always seem to know the least cultured people.
Consider me The UK General Public.

Historyguy · 10/06/2025 19:32

Shiuld I just not write this?

it’s clearly getting a lot of people ticked off

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 10/06/2025 19:30

Coatsoff42 · 10/06/2025 19:25

Just write whatever story you want, very few people (me included) know the ins and outs of that period of time.
If it’s a mega bestseller perhaps you’ll be asked in interview about the character development and then you can explain it and account for it. But if you want a historical uber baddy with no motivation or character then write it like that and invent one.

i thought @CautiousLurker01 had great advice.

I would imagine quite a few Americans know a fair bit about the Salem Witch Trials. And The Crucible is probably one of the best know, frequently performed plays bar Shakespeare. The OP sounds like he intended to plagiarise that with the idea that Abigail stole money and ran away.

Coatsoff42 · 10/06/2025 19:25

Just write whatever story you want, very few people (me included) know the ins and outs of that period of time.
If it’s a mega bestseller perhaps you’ll be asked in interview about the character development and then you can explain it and account for it. But if you want a historical uber baddy with no motivation or character then write it like that and invent one.

i thought @CautiousLurker01 had great advice.

Historyguy · 10/06/2025 19:21

ErrolTheDragon · 10/06/2025 19:19

Might be a better idea. Presumably there’s a lot more known about him, but I suppose he’d be harder for you to work into your fiction .

There’s actually less known about him. All we know is that he was so corrupt that he went to prison and got out unfairly.

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/06/2025 19:19

Write what you like!! It’s your story. Why do you care what we think?

this is coming over very weirdly tbh

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