Simone Biles attacks Riley Gaines

She's caught up in the typical American style politics of Identity, whereby her blackness is automatically aligned with other perceived oppressed groups....and according to this narrative those with '"trans identities' are an oppressed group.. White women who vote Republican are by nature part of the oppressor class and so deserve no respect or support; in fact they are less than fully human and deserve scorn. She's just using trans people to augment her privilege".

It is not feminism because it is not woman centred. It is 'oppressed class' centred. So a hybrid, Americanised form of cultural Marxism.

You seemed to me be saying that Women from the UK that post here cannot really understand where Riley Gaines is coming from, because their experiences and background are surely so different?

“I do think the focus on Gaines' case can be counterproductive as TRAs counter that she only tied for 5th place w Lia Thomas, rather than being blatantly beaten.”

I find it interesting that Biles is saying that Gaines is essentially a mediocre female for coming in 5th (once) to Thomas who by any measure was a very mediocre male athlete (ranked 462nd) before taking the positions of female athletes.

I think that its also worth noting that when Gaines started her campaign, she had to do so after leaving her college as if she had said anything whilst there she would have been removed from the college, and the same goes for those girls/women that have started court cases.
This is not as simple as they are against men in women's sports.
They are fighting against the whole system which has let them and the current crop of female athletes down.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/simone-biles-spars-with-riley-gaines-over-trans-athlete-debate-launches-personal-attack-truly-sick/ar-AA1Gfpe5?ocid=BingNewsSerp

Good point. Even if TRAs try & spin it that way, we can stress that they are just continuing their misogynistic pattern of undermining the value of women's sports

I understand. After reading the horrific attacks Gaines has faced, I will agree she is definitely marvellously brave!

Hm, it's not by default a purity spiral imo to criticise someone. I have repeatedly stressed that I support Gaines' advocacy, support GC alliances w her & respect her courage, esp after knowing the danger she's been put in.

I think shutting down criticism by calling it a purity spiral is in a sense itself a purity spiral. Being GC is about debate & discussion. This should include the ability & willingness to allow criticism of people whose GC stance we support.

Awful. I actually think a lot of smart intellectuals fit that descriptor, it's a great word.

I get so fed up w the WNBA hypocrisy. US women complain that no one watches & ask men to watch but then don't watch themselves! Women need to watch, otherwise it implies the sport isn't worth it except as a virtue signalling thing. Like some other sports, the fact that a lot of the WNBA are masculine lesbians means that many straight women don't want to watch as they can't relate as they would to a feminine (and to a lesser degree, straight) athlete. Not so many women are hardcore into basketball so the relatability part is more important for some, plus they won't lower the net, which would make it more exciting w more dunks.

So yes, if men infiltrate the WNBA I expect there would be no outcry.

Unfortunately, the right wing is the only wing taking GC views seriously.

I agree that Biles bided her time to hop aboard the Nasser allegations. She should have lent her considerable prestige to the case much earlier.

There’s a single word for that in German - Fachidiot. It translates roughly to ‘specialist idiot’. Someone who has great knowledge in one area but has little real understanding, or only a narrow perspective on subjects outside their area of expertise.

However, I cynically suspect SB is being very political here and looking at her popularity among the proponents of this anti scientific movement. Eye on the main chance for future positions. Where is the reward in supporting unfashionable people like other women?

For all alleged concern for the WNBA, I presume it would be fine and dandy to such activists if female basketball players (of any colour) were sidelined to enable mediocre males (of any colour) to cheat them out of their places, sponsorships and winnings. That would be progressive, you see. Ne’er a peep about that, I’d presume. Women’s rights (as a sex class) are apparently now to be relegated as ‘MAGA’. Jesus wept!

Also, the quip about RG being more akin to a man is very cheap. All because SG is calling this bs out for what it is.

SB is married to a big lad too, an american football player.

Oh no. I always like her- what else has she done? I thought perhaps success had made her unpleasant, but sounds like she was already unpleasant?

Thank you, I am sorry for the confusion. Oh certainly, censorship of any kind is v dangerous. Everyone should be able to voice their beliefs and debate. And as I've said, any support on trans is essential, purity testing alliances etc is ridiculous.

But otoh, if GC people are working w someone, I don't think it's good to refrain from all criticism for a united front.. The backlash against trans has also included other things that many here would disagree w regarding women's rights etc. Cooperating w people who may campaign against stuff we support etc is essential, but otoh it's important to be aware that influential figures on the rise may, and in many cases do, use their position to oppose women's rights etc. Eg. Many of the factions influencing the White House rn.

BTW, on the ADF tho, I do agree ofc w their trans advocacy, this should definitely be supported. I know the state of left wing advocacy on GC stuff is disgraceful. I find most of their other views terrible, but I know their advocacy on this has been essential

It's definitely v bad we have to check everything. Media lies & bias always existed, but it's awful rn. Still, if one hasn't time to check, scepticism is always best, but it shouldn't be that way ofc..

Just to add, if you like maybe you could reply via PM, esp if it will be a long reply, so we don't clog up the thread. I really don't want to derail it anymore..

Ah thank you, that's v kind. She is getting better slowly.

I am sorry for the confusion, I don't want to spread misinformation and want the thread to focus on the issues at hand, not derail.

However, would it be OK to ask how the ADF has been misrepresented? They have a history of opposing the decriminalisation of homosexuality, linking it to paedophilia (in their Lawrence vs Texas brief), opposing school info on STDs, gay adoption and civil partnerships (not just marriage), opposed a 2005 Day against LGB bullying, supporting conversion therapy group Exodus International, supporting Dobbs vs Jackson, allowing Catholic adoption agencies to refuse Jewish couples, restricting abortion & contraceptives (this last is a bit murky as I suppport conscience exemptions, but they seem to go beyond that).

They ofc have a right to these views, and their legal advocacy. And I have a right to find these views disturbing. How have they been misrepresented? This info is from the public records of what they litigate for, I don't see how it could be misrepresented. They are quite open about their beliefs themselves

I feel like I am fully used to living in the Upside Down now. Almost every week someone I previously admired says something awful, and someone awful says something good. I don't have the energy to feel angry or disappointed by any more people and have accepted a lot of people just talk shite about things they know nothing about. It will come back to bite them one day when they'll all have to disown their previous statements.

Hmm, I'm not trying to guilt trip anyone for being right wing, nor did I want to slander Gaines. I made some assumptions too fast about her from limitited info, which I have apologised and explained why. I do think that people should be aware that GC supporters gaining power now may have regressive views in other areas, but that may not be the case of Gaines (except on abortion)

I've stated that I agree w any alliances to combat trans & I respect Gaines' bravery, esp after knowing she was attacked. 😡

Best wishes for your Gran and for you.

I def agree that her advocacy on this has been outstanding. I didn't know that she had been assaulted, that is vile & gives me an extra ton of respect for courage to carry on through that.. The worry I have is about the the rising tide of more regressive policies that some conservative anti-TRA people support., to varying levels, some fairly moderate, others v extreme. I see that Gaines' views are more ambiguous than I thought (apart from abortion). Moreover, hopefully there is not much appetite for dismantling women's or lgb rights, or not as much as the dangerous T stuff, at any rate.
In one episode I see that Gaines speaks to Kara Dansky about women's and lesbian rights. That will be interesting to listen to, a d maybe reveal more of Gaines' views. Gaines seems ambivalent about feminism as a while, but v pro women on many issues.

Ok. Thank you for explaining. I can see that there has been a great deal of social media discussion and a lot of biased posting about ADF in the past from a range of left wing organisations and people.

I have been concerned by people making accusations about Riley Gaines. I wanted to know what I was missing. I think she is brave. I think she has taken on so much at her age. I don’t agree with everything she posts, but I rarely find anyone I fully agree with. I do agree with much of what she says about female athletes needing their category protected

But isn’t it so time consuming to have to keep going to find original source to establish an accurate representation of truth? What a time to live in! Where we cannot trust our media and have to continually keep checking them! I can certainly understand why people don’t do it for everything they take in and process.

John Oliver's segment on Riley is brilliant

Exactly. That's why I said that the best way to ascertain someone's views is to read what they write themselves, or watch interviews in full, not just clips. But ofc this is a bit harder for events w multiple sources of what was done, you have to just read all views and try & ascertain which is most accurate.

I agree about far right being used indiscriminately. Starting w the idiots who unironically call mumsnet fascist!

You know I've been on MN a while now and nowhere have I seen the 'men can become women' crew give me one good reasoned argument as to why anyone should hold that view.
However, it is slowly dawning on me that I have also not seen any poster making a good case for me embracing left-wing feminism. It's just guilt trips, slander and time-wasting posting.

I would definitely be suspicious of the views of a conservative Muslim podcaster who interviewed many Muslims w v socially conservative views, including about women & gay people. Gaines does a lot of good interviews w GC campaigners, but also many w conservatives who are anti-abortion, feminism etc, often linked to conservative Christianity. She herself is a conservative Christian.

I hope your gran feels better soon and you get some much needed rest.