Simone Biles attacks Riley Gaines

Oops! Looks like her PR team have stepped in!

I was going to ask for a definition of 'pro-life'. Is there a definition? Or can pro-life include people who will support an abortion until a particular stage of pregnancy when they, personally, consider 'life' of a foetus has started?

Not much of an apology, apart from saying sorry for getting personal , but until Simone accepts the premise that males of whatever age should never be in female sports and says so clearly, all the guff about fairness and inclusivity holds no water. If boys want to be in sport then there are plenty of sports and opportunities for them to be in sport, with other boys.

It is not an issue for women to sort, we have enough issues about abusive coaches, shared changing facilities, lost scholarships, team places, records, sponsorships, training opportunities, medals and future earnings to keep us busy without having to arrange special opportunities for able bodied boys who probably don’t want them in the first place because they would prefer to steal them from girls because then they get to stand on the podium.

Simone has sort of apologised.

x.com/simone_biles/status/1932470954610901259?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

You yourself by your own words are pro-life. You realise abortion is til 24 weeks because many foetal abnormalities don't show up til the 20 week scan, right?

I would make an exception for 2nd trimester for women who have been raped, or danger to the mother, or if she was suicidal

So the woman has to suffer before being allowed autonomy over her body? And you realise the general reason for an abortion is the woman would be suicidal if she can't get it, right? That's what women will claim That is the reason put down by the two doctors. So that is the general reason so you support abortions in the 2nd trimester then by your own words.

The thing is though, we've now consumed an awful lot of pages going round the houses about things Riley might believe, based mostly on assumptions drawn from her demographic profile, with a side order of her having spoke with people on her podcast who quite separately and quite a long time ago said something that was arguably objectionable.

I don't find this very productive.

In real life, people have all kinds of mixes of beliefs, they have a diverse array of friends... you don't need a very sophisticated class analysis to know that we all have different life experiences and that affects how we react to different things or events.

The sectarian approach that says there's a correct answer to every question, my group of friends happens to have that correct answer, and the people who dissent are bad people who must be excluded - I've seen that, experienced it first hand, and it gets us nowhere.

It's simply that my suggestions about Gaines were on balance more likely than the stuff on Kellie.

It doesn't matter!

Making stuff up about someone doesn't become more ethically justified by increased likelihood of it being true.

Indeed, on the contrary - it's probably more damaging to make stuff up that's plausible.

If you said Gaines was a Martian people are more likely to spot that you're just making stuff up.

@AliasGrace47 you've made post after post about how people need to be careful in supporting Riley Gaines on the sports issue because of her views on abortion but your views on abortion are also not agreeable to many feminists.

Fair enough. I do get why the sources were asked for, as I said it's a good thing. It's simply that my suggestions about Gaines were on balance more likely than the stuff on Kellie. Simone Biles' private life is little known, so any blanket accudation is suspec5.

I know that. But I do support choice, I believe every woman should have the opportunity to choose, for whatever reason. (Sex selection is horrible, but how would you know that's the reason? Most would not say that). I just believe that choice should be made early. Pro life campaigners concern me bc they generally only want exemptions for rape/danger to life, and don't consider simply not wanting the baby a valid reason.

I would make an exception for 2nd trimester for women who have been raped, or danger to the mother, or if she was suicidal
Generally I just focus on getting access early so that there can be a choice when the baby is not too developed.

Many people wanted sources

You will be asked for sources on FWR whatever you post. Some people posted shit about Simone Biles, and we asked for sources. The fact that this forum is evidence based is the only reason I come here.

I did not demand anything, but the post that you sent straight after mine did not address my question.

You realise that many feminists would think your position is anti choice regarding abortions.

Yes

I was wrong about the ADF platform sharing anyway. Platform sharing itself is never wrong, we need any help we can get, and if we don't talk to others we're as bad as the TRAs.

I love Gaines reply about Nasser. It does feel uncomfortable to bring it up, but as a victim herself Biles is throwing others under the bud. How can she support SA victims & then throw in her lot w the TRAs? OK, she didn't say she supports men in women's prisons etc. But changing rooms are bad enough

@AliasGrace47 do you only support the right to abortion in the first trimester?

Hey, I was just typing! There's no need to demand an instant reply...

Many people wanted sources- I know this is probs bc people like Kelly Jay often get smeared & misrepresented, and in my case, I had made a mistake, so it's good it was checked.

But on the other hand, it suggested to me that people were surprised that Gaines might oppose abortion & lgb rights, and thought it was likely made up. She identifies herself as a conservative Christian, it wouldn't be surprising if she had those views. I appreciate that people were rightly worried about lies from TRAs, but Gaines having those views is more likely than Kellie Jay being a Nazi or any of those ridiculous things people say.

@AliasGrace47 Are you going to reply to my post?

Bc I myself view efforts to ban abortion in the first trimester as harmful to women, and efforts to oppose gay marriage. It doesn't mean that I see Gaines or others who have those views as evil, but it does mean that I will be concerned if they are promoting those views & marshalling support for them on a popular podcast or whatever. Obviously they should have the right to do that, and I have a right to be concerned about it.

(As I've said, Gaines hasn't actually voiced a view on lgb rights, I am sorry for the earlier mistake about that. She doesn't really speak much about abortion on the podcast either. The ADF thing wasn't about gay marriage per se. As I said upthread, they oppose civil partnerships & promote the criminalisaton of homosexuality in the US & abroad in Jamaica, India & others. I was under the impression she was endorsing their whole agenda. They just discussed trans stuff, so I made a mistake. Kirk Cameron's comments were about homosexuality per se, not gay marriage, but likewise it wasn't really discussed on the podcast).

Obvs TRAs are the worst kinds of campaigners normally. But if an increasingly popular trans supporting figure is marshalling support for that cause on a podcast or whatever, I won't see them as evil or stupid by default for doing that, I would be able to see if they had reasoned arguments. But I would be concerned, as I view trans promotion as harmful.

OK I'll bite.

@AliasGrace47 You said, in an earlier post:
I apologise for offending people w the use of naive. But I still hold the view that it is naive to be surprised, as many seemed to be, at the suggestion that Gaines could be anti-choice and anti-lgb.

Could you please dig out the 'many' posts where people seem naive and surprised?

I agree that the assault on children makes it extremely urgent. I have multiple times from the start said that I suppport & respect Gaines' fight for women athletes, and I support GC alliances w her

It's simply that I think we should be aware of the way that in the US groups are in the ascendant that see trans issues as only one of the things they oppose. Eg. Abortion rights, lesbian rights, sometimes contraception. This doesn't mean that I'm saying we shouldn't ally w them, I'm simply saying we should be aware of this.

I appreciate the GC argument that children & women are in direct danger, and that trans affects all other issues : eg. A woman who'd had an abortion might be confronted w a trans counsellor, lesbians being harassed w the cotton ceiling stuff. I agree that trans I the priority rn. But I still think we should not take our eye of other issues completely.

This comment isn't so much about Gaines as a general one, as I've said we actually only really know her attitude to abortion, and of course she is perfectly entitled to only focus on one issue publicly, in fact she probably rightly sees this as an effective tactic.

It's worth noting that we are not in the trenches anymore. I very much doubt that the Americans will ever vote for a brainwashed TRA supporter as President. In the UK, we have a ban on puberty blockers & a Supreme Court ruling. I understand after the years of being told there was nothing to worry about & then being abused in the horrible fight, people here are still v worried. But I think that the GC issue has probably been won as far as politics goes., and I don't think all other issues should be ignored until it is completely gone, bc that will take years as the ideology is embedded. The community is a different matter- see parents taking 'trans kids' to New Zealand etc for treatment, as NBC has reported.

I agree that the assault on children makes it extremely urgent. I have multiple times from the start said that I suppport & respect Gaines' fight for women athletes, and I support GC alliances w her

It's simply that I think we should be aware of the way that in the US groups are in the ascendant that see trans issues as only one of the things they oppose. Eg. Abortion rights, lesbian rights, sometimes contraception. This doesn't mean that I'm saying we shouldn't ally w them, I'm simply saying we should be aware of this.

I appreciate the GC argument that children & women are in direct danger, and that trans affects all other issues : eg. A woman who'd had an abortion might be confronted w a trans counsellor, lesbians being harassed w the cotton ceiling stuff. I agree that trans I the priority rn. But I still think we should not take our eye of other issues completely.

This comment isn't so much about Gaines as a general one, as I've said we actually only really know her attitude to abortion, and of course she is perfectly entitled to only focus on one issue publicly, in fact she probably rightly sees this as an effective tactic.

It's worth noting that we are not in the trenches anymore. I very much doubt that the Americans will ever vote for a brainwashed TRA supporter as President. In the UK, we have a ban on puberty blockers & a Supreme Court ruling. I understand after the years of being told there was nothing to worry about & then being abused in the horrible fight, people here are still v worried. But I think that the GC issue has probably been won as far as politics goes., and I don't think all other issues should be ignored until it is completely gone, bc that will take years as the ideology is embedded. The community is a different matter- see parents taking 'trans kids' to New Zealand etc for treatment, as NBC has reported.

Naturally, there's no mention of the female 'kids' affected.

Quite a few of SB's supporters say how mean it was for RG to 'pick on' kids (ie the state high school with a boy on their team). For example: "The comments are off because people like you bully kids until they end up killing themselves".

This is one of the most wicked things about this men's rights movement; it persuades vulnerable young people that they are not their actual sex, encourages them onto life-altering hormones and surgery and then uses them as a shield against any sane objections.

Maybe this is why gender critical women are found across the spectrum of social and political opinion and many are not really that concerned about the nuance of exactly how right-wing or left-wing an ally might be. This issue is not some dry intellectual discussion on the meaning of feminism; it is an assault on children of the sort that will shame us for generations to come.