Ban the Burka? Q to Kier Starmer today-is this a good idea or not?

It isn't "backed by" our government simply because they don't explicitly prohibit it. And there will be a wide range of different views within Muslim families and communities.

As to how you could empower women to make their own free choices, it's an interesting question, and I'm sure that there will be some relevant research out there. However, we should not assume that these women themselves are without agency or opinions of their own. Change very often comes from within communities and not just from outside.

It's also an interesting question to think about how we would actually know when these women have been empowered to make their own choices. There is a tendency to assume that women with a free choice will always and inevitably go uncovered, because that preference is so deeply ingrained within our own thinking that we can't even contemplate the possibility that they might choose something different. So the tendency is to assume that, if they are still covering, it must be because they are oppressed, even if that is somehow the result of internalised misogyny etc. It's hard to conceive of the possibility that some women might have their reasons for choosing to cover anyway. I'm not sure how we would ever really be able to know for sure. None of us live in a vacuum.

This is true, and it would be good to get an understanding of why this is. I don't personally think that banning face coverings is going to liberate any women who are being oppressed. If anything, it will merely limit their freedom more.

I think the idea of a ban appeals to people who don't like seeing women with their faces covered and want them to just disappear from our streets so that the rest of us don't encounter them. I don't think it appeals so much to people who are genuinely concerned about the welfare of these women, as some will be in a much worse position if they are no longer permitted to leave the home.

Change very often comes from within communities and not just from outside.

I think the issue might be that the change seems to be happening in the opposite direction, i.e. you see more women covering their faces and more primary school girls wearing headscarves than 15-20 years ago.

It isn't "backed by" our government simply because they don't explicitly prohibit it. And there will be a wide range of different views within Muslim families and communities.

As to how you could empower women to make their own free choices, it's an interesting question, and I'm sure that there will be some relevant research out there. However, we should not assume that these women themselves are without agency or opinions of their own. Change very often comes from within communities and not just from outside.

It's also an interesting question to think about how we would actually know when these women have been empowered to make their own choices. There is a tendency to assume that women with a free choice will always and inevitably go uncovered, because that preference is so deeply ingrained within our own thinking that we can't even contemplate the possibility that they might choose something different. So the tendency is to assume that, if they are still covering, it must be because they are oppressed, even if that is somehow the result of internalised misogyny etc. It's hard to conceive of the possibility that some women might have their reasons for choosing to cover anyway. I'm not sure how we would ever really be able to know for sure. None of us live in a vacuum.

The problem with banning the burka is that the women will end up never going out.

My personal preference would be that any married women wearing full covering burkas, the husband should have to do the same.

Disclaimer: this is not a serious suggestion

It isn't "backed by" our government simply because they don't explicitly prohibit it. And there will be a wide range of different views within Muslim families and communities.

As to how you could empower women to make their own free choices, it's an interesting question, and I'm sure that there will be some relevant research out there. However, we should not assume that these women themselves are without agency or opinions of their own. Change very often comes from within communities and not just from outside.

It's also an interesting question to think about how we would actually know when these women have been empowered to make their own choices. There is a tendency to assume that women with a free choice will always and inevitably go uncovered, because that preference is so deeply ingrained within our own thinking that we can't even contemplate the possibility that they might choose something different. So the tendency is to assume that, if they are still covering, it must be because they are oppressed, even if that is somehow the result of internalised misogyny etc. It's hard to conceive of the possibility that some women might have their reasons for choosing to cover anyway. I'm not sure how we would ever really be able to know for sure. None of us live in a vacuum.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves
We absolutely need to think about how we can best support and empower these women to enable them to make their own free choices,

As long as these practices are perfectly acceptable , I'm not sure we can.
How can we empower woman to reject something that their own communities/families is saying is (mandatory) perfectly fine, and is also backed by our own government.

The burka covers the face.

Even in muslim countries such as Turkey the burka is considered extreme. It arises within a culture in which a woman is not supposed to have a public face or a public voice; and that is not acceptable in a western liberal democracy, and against a background in which generations of women have fought for the right to a public face and voice.

This topic rears its head in the public domain every so often. How many people actually wear a burka for it to be an issue? Hardly any!

A woman found guilty of terror offences has had a second custody image released by police, showing her wearing a niqab, after her defence said she was distressed by an earlier image showing her face, according to reports.

Farishta Jami, from Stratford-upon-Avon, Warwickshire, was found guilty of two counts of engaging in conduct in preparation for terrorism, after planning to travel to join the affiliate of the so-called Islamic State in Afghanistan, Isis-K.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stratforduponavon-afghanistan-warwickshire-police-warwickshire-islamic-state-b2698949.html

@RayonSunrise ban the burkha might get very little done but it will be one less form of control. Every little helps and while the burkha/niqab/face covering is considered acceptable and protected in law, what message does that send out?
Even Egypt which is majority Muslim and the majority of Muslim women there wear ha headscarf those are banned in certain areas and the niqab/burkha more so.

Of course not only Muslims abuse women, but I can't think of any such oppressive practices by British men that are considered socially acceptable.

The 'more white men are abusive and control women by telling them what to do/wear, than a tiny amount of Muslims who make women cover up' argument sounds like 'it's CIS men out there raping women, why are you bothering about a tiny amount of transwomen, focus on the cis men instead'

I say let's ban the burkha/niqab/face covering and if women can't leave their homes and interact as a result, then we tackle that.

So we should liberate women by forcing them to reveal parts of thier body that they are not comfortable revealing?

I remember when they banned the burka in France and you had big burly police officers forcing women to remove thier clothes. That certainly didn't look like liberation.

Quite a few EU countries already do this. I don’t think they qualify as ‘dumb’.

@RayonSunrise ban the burkha might get very little done but it will be one less form of control. Every little helps and while the burkha/niqab/face covering is considered acceptable and protected in law, what message does that send out?
Even Egypt which is majority Muslim and the majority of Muslim women there wear ha headscarf those are banned in certain areas and the niqab/burkha more so.

Of course not only Muslims abuse women, but I can't think of any such oppressive practices by British men that are considered socially acceptable.

The 'more white men are abusive and control women by telling them what to do/wear, than a tiny amount of Muslims who make women cover up' argument sounds like 'it's CIS men out there raping women, why are you bothering about a tiny amount of transwomen, focus on the cis men instead'

I say let's ban the burkha/niqab/face covering and if women can't leave their homes and interact as a result, then we tackle that.

But you don't mind living in a.country where.men belonging to.certain groups tell women what to wear.
Once on a very hot day a family sat down at a table near me. Dad went to get drinks for two lovely little girls and his wife covered head to toe in a burka with slits to let her see out. Dad and the girls drank their juice but Mum just sat there until Dad flapped his hand at her and she was able to have a drink.
I was saddened by how the woman was treated but appalled by what lay ahead of the two little girls.
I'm not all right with that at all.

Well I said I wasn't going to comment further, but today's a new day and I wanted to comment on this and a point you made earlier.

If in the UK, we're going to accept all religious practices as someone's right to observe their faith and so on (because it would be racist or against their human rights not to) then we would have to allow Muslims to practice polygamy right?
Many Muslim women enter freely into polygamous marriages (indeed many converts are brainwashed into thinking this is somehow beneficial for the women). Polygamy came around at a time when there were fewer men and also as a way to take care of widows which isn't as relevant today.

As it stands polygamy is illegal in the UK, but following the theme of 'it's their religion and their right' surely an exemption for Muslims (and others who practice polygamy in line with their beliefs) should be made and respected in law

In reality, multiple marriages do happen in the UK and while they are islamically valid, they leave the woman with no legal rights according to UK law due to the marriage not being recognised by the state.

Apart from child marriages and FGM which shouldn't be permitted anywhere in the world, we should be permitting all sorts of oppressive practices if it's their way of practicing their faith right?

You can't condone face coverings but condemn polygamy.