Are toilets still allowed to be cleaned by members of the opposite sex?

You'll find it easier to hear if you removed your fingers from your ears and stopped chanting mantras to block out the "noise".

Do I need to copy in other replies about signs and informed consent? i.e. When an opposite sex cleaner is in, women are told and can choose (the stupid information and consent part) to leave.
And the cleaner is not a service user. I'm sure it's been said multiple times now. He gets his jonny out in the men's like all good men.

One group: Male toilet cleaners
Other group: Men who want to use the women's toilets

The thing they are both doing - going in the women's toilets

But it's not the exact same thing the toilet cleaners are going in there to clean the toilet, and the other men are going in there because they prefer to pee in the ladies than the mens

I judge them differently because the male toilet cleaner does go in the mens to clean them - ie. treats both facilities in the same way for their activity, where as the other group of men doesn't - they don't go in the mens at all - they only want to use the ladies.

If there was a male cleaner who said he only wanted to clean the womens, and wouldn't ever clean mens toilets, I might be a bit suspicious of him too (actually probably not, I've cleaned mens toilets before and they're often quite horrible)

The single sex exceptions in the EA are exactly the same for service providers (private businesses) as for public functions (like hospitals). They are literally the same paragraphs of the Act.

The EA does not say that any service provider or public function MUST provide single sex services. It says they CAN if it's a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

The SC judgment says that if a service provider / public function provides single sex services then these MUST actually be single sex. It makes no difference whether it's a private business or a public function.

So a private business could choose to only provide mixed sex facilities although they run the risk of legal action for indirect discrimination and/or unlawful harassment (the avoidance of which is always a legitimate aim!) What they cannot do is provide single sex facilities and then let some people of the wrong sex use them.

Document T, which forms part of the building regs, says that for any building open to the public, new builds and refurbishments MUST include separate male and female toilets wherever space permits so over time, it will only be very small premises which have mixed sex toilets.

We do have the (theoretical) right to single sex wards because this a pledge in the NHS constitution.

For me, it’s is a very simple difference. There is a very obvious reason for a male cleaner being in a women’s toilet. He is doing his job. I have never yet been surprised by a male cleaner in a toilet- there has always been a sign outside every time I’ve come across it. (And actually I’ve rarely encountered it- not sure where you are that it happens ‘all the time’).

Furthermore, a male cleaner is not pretending to be a woman or asking to be seen as a woman.

I can accept a man in a women’s toilet if he is there to do a job and I know he is going to be there (and he is not trying to be anything other than a male cleaner)- I can choose whether to go ahead and use the facility or not. I do not accept men pretending to be women in a women’s toilet when I don’t expect to find a man in there.

It’s very simple to me and I don’t understand why you’re so confused about it.

As for women’s refuges- again, the women who have been traumatised by having a male presence in the facility did not expect to see and hear a male there. If they knew in advance there was a possibility of a man being there, how many would have avoided seeking help altogether? Refuges need to be safe and therapeutic spaces; it’s completely different to having a male cleaner in a toilet or a male HCP on a women’s ward. It would probably be great if we could always have women in all of those roles, but that’s just not how things are.

WhatNextCatsAsDoctors

Yes, you're quite right, obviously there will be some women who simply won't use a toilet with the possibility of a male cleaner. Because people, generally, understand that they can't always get what they want, all the time. And loathe it though they might, they're not in a position to force companies to only employ women to clean the ladies.

Other women will take their chances with a sign.

Most of those women, however, do not want to be using the toilet with men who couldn't give a fuck about their boundaries and who might or might not, be sexually aroused by their presence.

Transwomen fall into the last category.

In a perfect world, only women would clean women's toilets.

Most of the women here are adults, and realise that the world is not perfect.

Legally, they must clearly identify the toilets as mixed sex. They cannot label them separately as men's and women's unless they mean biological sex. They also run the risk of being sued by women who feel they are being discriminated against by mixed sex provision.

Yes it’s still allowed where I am. They have a sign on the door so you know before you enter. I am personally Not bothered.

because neither women's boundaries nor the law are important to them. Because they want to, and a man's whims are more important than the safety and dignity of women.
Because laws shouldn't apply to them.
Again, not all trans identifying males are like this. I refer only to those who insist they will carry on using women's spaces.

A man with a gender identity in the ladies either believes he has successfully deceived the women using the facility or knows that he hasn’t. Both options are creepy boundary pushing

There is not a legal right for a trans person to use the facilities of the gender they identify as now. But it doesn’t stop private places choosing to still allow it, places like theatres etc etc. I think hospitals and places like that are different, they have to supply single sex spaces.

Wait - I know this one. They just want to pee!

No. It's about motive.

I know what a male cleaner is doing in the woman's toilets. His job.

But a trans-identifying man? Why are they there?

Your goal is noted. But in the examples you give, it's not the "exact same thing". A cleaner is there to clean, not "just to pee". So the fact that people feel differently about it isn't the evidence for prejudice that you think it is.

Dr Hakeem lists nine types of transvestites (eight of which involve sexual arousal or excitement), autogynephiles and a 'variety of other fetishists' - all under the trans umbrella.
You cannot dismiss him with nervous laughter, I'm afraid.

you are failing in your goal as we see trans people just like other males. A trans cleaner doing his job in the women's loos : fine, as long as he follows protocols as cleaners in trousers do.

It's not the trans that's the issue. It's the refusal to respect women's boundaries.

There would be legitimate questions about the motivations of a male cleaner putting on lipstick and a dress in order to go and clean a women's bathroom.

The next step I imagine would be a human rights claim from the trans identifying male cleaner about how his rights were being infringed by not being allowed to clean women's bathrooms, especially at busy times of day.

I am reminded of the similar claim by the trans identifying male police officer demanding the right to conduct intimate searches on women.

My overall goal is more to point out the way people see trans people vs other groups and how bizarre it is. It’s a basic exercise for checking prejudice:
if you see one group doing something, then see another group doing the exact same thing, if you despise one group for it and not the other, you should reflect on why.

I have no probem with male cleaners wearing a dress and lipstick while doing their job, so long as they announce their presence when coming in, give women a chance to leave if they wish before entering, and leaving a sign outside to warn other women of their (temporary) presence so they can make a choice to either enter or wait until the cleaning is done.

for someone who isn’t talking to me you don’t half directly address me a lot

I do enjoy mocking your points to be honest because they’re often quite silly and not really worth responding to seriously

Thanks for letting me know that you see me <waves>

So totally unbiased and peer reviewed then 😂

I've pointed out why a male cleaner looks and acts differently when cleaning a women's toilet than a trans identifying man using a women's toilet. But now that you've pointed out the possible conflict, it may be that there will have to be complaints to employers and service providers about male cleaners if for no other reason than to stop trans identifying men arguing that because a male cleaner was allowed over the threshold to clean, they should be allowed over the same threshold to pee. (It's really not a strong argument.)

Exactly.
And such decent trans identifying males do exist. There is a lovely one who started an AMA post saying he agrees with the judgment.
He has done the hormones and some surgery and feels female, but knows he is a biological male.
Like the vast majority of males who recognise women's boundaries and accept that they need to stay out of women only spaces, he is not a threat to women.
I'm sure there are countless other decent, trans identifying males who respect women's rights.

What if the male cleaner was wearing a dress and lipstick?

Dr Az Hakeem is a consultant psychiatrist, medical psychotherapist and group analyst. He trained in medicine at University College London, in psychiatry at the Royal Free and in forensic psychotherapy at the Portman Clinic, where he later worked as a consultant until leaving the NHS.
He was one of the earliest and most outspoken gender-critical psychiatrists and the only consultant psychiatrist specialising in psychotherapy for adults with gender-identity conditions. He set up and ran a specialist UK psychotherapy service for adults with gender dysphoria for 12 years using both one-to-one and group analytic therapy with a less than 2% rate of patients deciding to pursue physical treatments. He stopped seeing gender patients in 2022 due to the political climate and now works exclusively in private practice based in Harley Street.
He is the author of Trans: exploring gender identity and gender dysphoria and more recently Detrans: when transition is not the solution; a member of CAN-SG, professional patron of LGB Alliance, and Honorary Clinical Associate Professor at UCL Medical School.'

In his book Detrans he says (p 30 Kindle) "The numbers of non-transsexual trans have always greatly outnumbered those who would in the past been referred to as a 'transsexual'. The majority are males with a fetish involving some appropriation of aspects afforded to the opposite sex."

In this thread I’m not actually arguing that trans women should be able to use women’s loos.

I’m pointing out the cognitive dissonance of the male cleaner scenario being acceptable.

You may be okay with the informed consent approach, but even that is not in line with the ‘no men in women’s spaces’ mantra. Not all women are.