Are toilets still allowed to be cleaned by members of the opposite sex?

My experience is different. I run the outsourced contracts for all facilities management contracts for a very large, public facing organisation with multiple sites. This includes the toilet cleaning contracts. We definitely do require our suppliers to DBS check their employees.

I am staunchly GC and have precisely zero time for any of this shit that denies biology and observable fact/reality. We're all adults. Let's act like it.
Trans women are men.
To state otherwise is just lunacy.

But, being completely honest, I have thought for some time now that it's not appropriate for male cleaners to clean female toilets.
I understand that the cleaners will have most likely completed a DBS check and other relevant checks, but it still does make me uncomfortable that there might be a male in the facilities when I use them. Whatever they are doing in there. It's irrelevant really.

There's been times (perhaps on a long motorway journey) when I've been absolutely busting to use the loo ( and have no other option) and I've seen the sign that male cleaners might be present and I HAVE felt uncomfortable going in. I don't like it. It makes me feel on edge. Women are not a statistical threat to me, men are. When I'm in a state of undress, I would much prefer to be around people that are not a threat to me.

So yes, I have though for some time (not just since the SC judgement) that male cleaners shouldn't be cleaning female toilets. Simply because they are men. Being the victim of SA, I don't want to see a man anywhere near a facility where I'm vulnerable and in a state of undress - regardless of their purpose in being there.

So I'd be completely behind a drive to ensure that female facilities are cleaned by female people. Absolutely.
I totally get this would cause issues in terms of staffing etc, but in my opinion, female facilities should be exclusively female.

But the argument about little boys can get to fuck.
Absolutely absurd.

As the single parent of a little boy I find this argument utterly deranged. If you are putting little boys in the same category as fully developed, post puberty adult men you need to have a long, hard think about your thought processes.

And if you need this to be explained to you - why they are completely different categories, I'd be very concerned indeed about your motives.

You’ve misunderstood. Women have historically retreated to the toilets knowing they were single sex space in order to avoid male people who were generally being annoying and creepy but not actually actively chasing them. Knowing that if the annoying or creepy guy actually followed into the toilet, the women could call for help and the man would be evicted. I’ve done it on a night out where a very drunk man wouldn’t accept he’d wandered into the ladies and was generally incapable of reason. A quick “excuse me, theres a bloke in the ladies that refuses to leave” at the bar and several obliging chaps went in and hustled him out and straight through the pub to the street while his equally drunk mates stared with mouths open. It was the social contract that kept us safe for years. You can’t do it now because they just say “I identify as a woman”.

If a man is actively threatening and chasing you, that last thing you do is go to a quiet, isolated, private space. You go to the most public place you can and ask for help. Shout “Fire” (because it gets more attention than “help”), scream, draw attention to yourself. The majority of people, men included, are still decent and want to help someone in distress, but common sense says you stay in the company of more than one person until you know you’re safe.

It’s like you’ve never attended any talks on personal safety and have absolutely no concept of the constant situational awareness that is involved in being a woman in public.

You missed women who have had a double mastectomy as a result of breast cancer (as deployed by the fox killer).

Tbf, TRA's seem to continue to believe, against overwhelming mirth, that 'your toilet at home/train/plane toilet is mixed sex!!!' is a compelling argument. It makes me misty eyed with nostalgia for 2018. I can't remember if its been used on this thread yet but is very popular at the moment on Twitter.

And... if you are in the opposite sex toilets cleaning, surely it is important that a sign is up so people entering can make choices.

If you are lying to your employer and it involves being in single sex spaces, I would consider the employer would need find that information useful if and when it is needed.

Surely if you are cleaning loos you will be expected to be in the opposite sex ones for half the time?

Also I don’t think it’s common to hsve DBS checks for toilet cleaners. I have cleaned loos for the council and they didn’t get one done. The only cleaning job that has ever required one is in a care home as residents are vulnerable.

Wait! 18 pages! Am I to assume the TRAs think this is some kind of compelling argument?

Most of the signs I have seen aren't so outing, they tend to say along the lines of "Male staff may maintain these toilets" and are there whether the actual cleaner is male or female.

So i don't think it's necessary for it to be outing.

My, we've gotten onto the 'clap if you believe!' Tinker Bell argument.

We're going to need a bigger bingo card.

If they haven't disclosed their transgender status to be a cleaner in some places, how would they be DBS checked appropriately?

However, aren't we told that no person with a transgender identity denies their sex? Are you saying that they would? That they would deny their sex when they would need to alert their employers that as a male person they were entering into female single sex spaces?

That is a concerning accusation you are making there.

Would they not have to make ‘trans cleaner’ signs?

This is my favourite 'gotcha' yet. 😂

No - 'men' covers it perfectly

Trans women and men who aren't trans are equally likely to have tried to get a job with access to women's loos in order to abuse women (see the examples upthread of the two male cleaners who placed cameras in women's space). In general we rely on the extra protections of the process of employment and the ties that employment brings to mitigate the risk. You are right that risk for women is still increased when men, whether trans identified or not, clean women's public toilets, but since it is logistically difficult to have same sex staff in many cases and such a requirement would probably lead to fewer toilets, it's not something that women have campaigned on. Most companies use a "Male Cleaners" sign to warn women so they can check.

There would be no particular point in insisting on a "Trans Cleaners" sign if the cleaner happened to be a trans, because women aren't concerned about trans people being in their toilets, they're concerned about men. A male cleaners sign conveys the risk clearly and is applicable regardless of a man's gender identity.

Sounds about right. Lots of wittering on about 'hate' and hopefully those pesky women will STFU, right?

I am sure trans people exist but you seem to think that they are all totally against abiding by the law. Why do you think that trans people are all potential law flouting criminals, can you not conceive of decent law abiding trans persons?

It's 'flood the zone' in action, Keating - if you can't think of a something groundless thing to say about women's toilets, throw in something about illegal immigrants, that might pad out the thread for another bit🙄

Why do you think that women having boundaries and their own spaces is 'trans hate'?

Are you one of those trans supporters that doesn't think women should have any rights of their own?

And what's any of that got to do with immigrants? Regardless of their legality? Did anyone even mention immigrants on this thread before you did?

I was just saying that the general trend for society is to rage on minority groups. We cycle through them. Currently, in addition to trans hatred, we’re obsessed with illegal immigrants. Hope that answers your two questions, apologies that I didn’t get to the first one fast enough before you asked a second time.

Oh ok. So we’ve just disregarded that trans people even exist now? Like, we’re just going to delete the word from the dictionary, too? So, in order to adhere to this signage rule, will they have to disclose that they’re trans to the cleaning company and then put up the “male cleaner” sign on the door? If they don’t, what would happen? Fire them? Burn them?

But what were you talking about then? What minority groups?

Ok. Glad that’s clarified. No need to apologise.

Your response to werewolftherewolf reads as if you think male cleaners (which they mentioned, not you) are a minority group.

My apologies for misunderstanding, you were making so much sense otherwise...

What are you saying then? Who are the minority groups you're talking about?

I thought this, but it has crossed my mind recently, the amount of public toilets being cleaned (especially in service stations) are by men. When 10-15 yrs ago it was a rare site.

Wanted to comment purely to comment but couldn't think of a single comment that would get through to the OP.

Actually, the men of any age and woman of any age.

"Oh what a beautiful baby, it's in neutral colours so do you mind me asking what it is...."

"Not at all, he's a man, just 3 months old called Toby" yeah ludicrous.

Yes. All that is needed is a sign saying 'male cleaner'.