Are toilets still allowed to be cleaned by members of the opposite sex?

I for one will say with clarity and confidence that boys under the age of 8 using the toilets with their mums are no threat to women's safety.

Caps lock not necessary.

This is so hilariously contradictory. So because a male is present, a woman needs to go elsewhere?

What if a woman had no choice but to go in there because she’s trying to escape a male harassing her outside the loo (again, a real scenario used on here), and is then confronted by a man?

And as has been stated on here many times, lots of toilets simply have signs saying ‘please be aware this toilet is cleaned by male staff’. So how long does she have to wait?

I thought it was ALL men? Regardless of who they are or what they are doing? Or is it just some now?

How convenient.

Also, yes:

www.montrealgazette.com/news/article94794.html

Or wait, does it seem ridiculous to you to banish all male cleaners based on the actions of a few bad eggs?

You say pedantic, I say precise. Which is a good thing.

The SC didn't opine on whether GRC's apply to other laws or not; it wasn't asked to.

Some people including me think that if the courts were asked to decide whether a GRC applied for the purposes of the Workplace Regulations (and consequently what the provision of separate toilets for 'men' and 'women' means) they would rule that GRC's don't apply to those regulations either, and for the same reasons they applied to the Equality Act in FWS. That would settle that the separate toilets that are required are to be separated on the basis of biological sex.

I don't love using a toilet when there is a male cleaner there, but I generally do.
It doesn't mean I want more men in there though, increasing the chance of an uncomfortable experience.

Toilets are really just the tip of the iceberg though.
I'd be fine with men cleaning the swimming pool before/after women are racing, but less fine with them taking part in the races.

A male cleaners presence is clearly signalled so that women can make an informed decision about whether to enter or not.

What is it about this that you find so difficult to understand?

THERE IS A SIGN SAYING THAT THERE IS (OR COULD BE) A MALE CLEANER.

THE WOMAN CONCERNED THEN HAS THE CHOICE WHETHER THEY WANT TO USE THAT TOILET OR COME BACK LATER ON OR CHOOSE AN ALTERNATIVE TOILET.

THE MALE CLEANER DOES NOT LIVE IN THE TOILET. HE WILL PRESUMABLY DO HIS JOB AND THEN LEAVE THE TOILETS.

IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?

Yes. What in the cognitive dissonance is going on in this thread.

You all say: ‘no men in women’s spaces. End of. Full stop. Women come out of cubicles covered in blood, with their trousers open, partially undressed in other ways. Men should NOT be there. When women see men whilst they’re in a vulnerable state they get an immediate fear response.’

‘what about male cleaners?’

’oh that’s fine’

????????????

Hmmm. But in a materially reality sense, they are men. You might not want to go on about it out of a desire not to cause someone distress, but they aren't actually women. You can presumably tell the sex of other mammals?

I have no idea what I am supposed to have in common with a transwoman that makes us both women beyond things that I might have in common with any of my male friends or family (such as shared interests and hobbies).

The central thing I have in common with other women is that we are all female. We have been brought up and socialised as female, and have experience being female in a society that generaly regards us as a bit second class in many situations. But we don't all like the same music, or the same food, or the same films, or read the same books, or have the same hair, or all wear makeup.

So I don't know what it is that makes a trans woman a "woman", beyond steretypical presentation. Hair and clothes.

To be fair, when I see a man in the ladies loos without a good reason (like being there to clean, or being an 8 year old boy with his mum), then yeah, I assume they’re up to no good

I went to a loo recently that was being cleaned when I arrived. By a male cleaner. As soon as I went in he said "Would you like me to leave? I wont mind if you say yes"

What a hero. Doing his job and doing so in a totally respectful way.

Trans"women" dont do that though do they @PoisedRubyLion

And yes I do think that they are mostly in there cos they get a thrill out of it. If all they wanted to do was wee........they'd be asking for gender neutral facilities. But they arent.

In sport.......if all troons wanted was to compete in sport they'd happily accept a gender neutral/mixed competition. But they dont want that. Hence when its been an option........ they've had barely any competitors.

Well if they just wanted to pee, they’d use the male toilets. Which presumably they will now do, as they only want to pee apparently.

The remaining ones that still insist on using the female loos - yes, it’s for nefarious reasons. Obviously.

I don’t know why trans identifying men are not going in men’s toilets. Perhaps they could discuss that issue with men. It seems like a man’s problem.

But they aren’t women, apart from their “feelings” and I don’t know how you measure or calculate them.

Their pelvic bone formation alone means that pathologists and future archaeologists will know instantly that their sex is male. No need to discuss chromosomes, gametes, or DSDs. Doesn’t matter what surgery, implants, facial feminisation has been performed, no matter what hormones have been consumed . A male body that has lived life as a male is the body of a man.

It comes down to a conviction of mind, which does not really translate into reality.

By all means start a campaign to stop it.

Intent and consent. Do male cleaners use women and children to get a thrill of entering a forbidden space to enhance their sexual jollies? Do male cleaners take selfies in sexual poses and underwear to post and brag about on the Internet?

@TheKeatingFive It really does! It honestly baffles me that so many seemingly intelligent people are willing to debate obvious scientific fact.
Or not even bother to debate - just willingly accept nonsense.

“Plenty”. A very noncommittal way to enumerate. Personally I would use lots, or many, or most, or a majority, which would be as vague but probably more accurate.

See , it’s that language thing again, so important to recognise how easy it is to fudge things by using language.

Are toilets still allowed to be cleaned by members of the opposite sex?

11 pages to say “Yes”.

I realize on Mumsnet, “No is a complete sentence,” but I think the same applies here!

And now I’m going to have to go through all the pages to see what all you clever and witty women have written.

interesting gif to follow 😂

Yep!
The Stud magazine - an edition from decades ago. It talked about the male gaze and toilet door gaps in American public toilets. It was the source of inspiration for an American architect whose later article was referenced by a company reporting ‘evidence’ of why people with long term health conditions in the U.K. should have enclosed toilets. When I looked at the ‘evidence’ reference it was because transactivists had a preference for enclosed toilets in trendy New York nightclubs. Surprising, but true.

Also surprising was that the fact most of the long term health conditions weren’t even mentioned in this government commissioned report on toilet design, but non binary crotch heights were discussed! Unsurprisingly that the company got a Stonewall Award a year later in 2023.

I really didn’t not expect I would go to any of those places when I started looking at why the gaps had gone from toilet door design!

I have to admit that I was wavering between that cute beaver gif and this one

I can remember when male toilet cleaners started to become common in cleaning women's toilets in the late 1980s. There was a lot of discussion amongst women as to whether this was acceptable.
I can also remember in large department stores and ballrooms in the early 70's that next to the toilets there was often a powder room with a female attendant, soft chairs, dressing tables and mirrors!