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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The words that have been pulled over your eyes

491 replies

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/05/2025 21:00

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

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ArabellaScott · 27/05/2025 20:49

I've been to hell and back.

And let me tell you, it was wonderful.

winona ryder heathers GIF
ArabellaScott · 27/05/2025 20:47

recovering from their past behaviours

😂

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 20:40

JellySaurus · 27/05/2025 20:23

Seriously. Very few people in this country in 2025 have never been in the same house as a trans person.

You have not got a clue what our lives are like or who we know and interact with. It does not occur to you that many of us have concerns precisely because we have seen the harms done by this ideology to people we care about, to trans-IDing people we know, to the families of trans-IDing people.

This is not theoretical.

I don't know what your life is like. The Mumsnetters I know in real life are either recovering from their past behaviours, or people who dip in and out to comment on threads that especially horrify them. It's just a very different mindset to the kind we generally encounter in daily life - the social circles I exist in nowadays studiously avoid people who do and say things that are harmful to trans people, and find the idea of existing in social spaces that permit those kinds of behaviours to be abhorrent. We've all been in a bit of a daze for the last month, trying to comprehend the utterly bizarre nature of toilet bans in the UK of all places.

It sometimes feels like there are two countries overlapped on top of one another - one consists of people who are safe to be around, and one consists of people who have proven themselves to be active agents of harm to both myself and my friends.

I know a lot of people - cis and trans - who are desperately upset by the Supreme Court ruling, the EHRC guidance that has picked it up and run off with it, and the general rise of horrendous anti-trans rhetoric on both sides of the atlantic.

All this stuff has very real, very unpleasant, and sometimes very final consequences. We have lost people we love very dearly to this, and there is seemingly no end in sight.

JellySaurus · 27/05/2025 20:23

Seriously. Very few people in this country in 2025 have never been in the same house as a trans person.

You have not got a clue what our lives are like or who we know and interact with. It does not occur to you that many of us have concerns precisely because we have seen the harms done by this ideology to people we care about, to trans-IDing people we know, to the families of trans-IDing people.

This is not theoretical.

Annoyedone · 27/05/2025 20:12

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:06

Is that a yes, you don't believe her, then?

Well seeing a man cannot ever become a woman no matter how much he scrunches up his eyes, crosses his fingers and wishes really really hard… I’ll let you answer your own question.

ArabellaScott · 27/05/2025 19:56

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:40

Would it hurt to pretend to give a shit about other people occasionally between the sneers?

Let me know once you've tried it.

moggly · 27/05/2025 19:49

DeepGreyFox · 27/05/2025 00:49

It's very sad what this board has become. Page after page and thread after thread of venom against trans women. Looking back on old threads it was actually an interesting and useful place where discussions about feminism actually happened. Now it's just quite sickening to read. You'd be forgiven for thinking you were reading the comments in the Daily Fail.

When men like @ButterflyHatched come to these threads to scold and condescend and throw entitled hyperbole, one should expect pushback on this.

Annoyedone · 27/05/2025 19:17

Sorry that was to the always empathetic and in no way misogynistic @ButterflyHatched

Annoyedone · 27/05/2025 19:16

OldCrone · 27/05/2025 18:43

Just read what you've written and think about it for a moment...

Err… pot… kettle…. Bruntarse? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 19:04

OldCrone · 27/05/2025 18:43

Just read what you've written and think about it for a moment...

I know. I am just remembering that this is not a lack of self awareness, it is something else. It is remarkable. It really is.

Zita60 · 27/05/2025 18:57

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 21:32

But why the obsession with trans women? It's not as if they are the only ones who might commit violence but they're made out to be the big bad bogeys. Yes there are some trans women ( who possibly only decided they were trans when faced with prison) who have done awful things but the vast majority are done by the average man.

The point is not that there are more men than transwomen and therefore men are more dangerous than transwomen.

It's that when a woman is faced with a man or a transwoman, the chances of him being a physical threat to her are the same.

(In fact, the rates of sex-offending among transwomen appear to be higher than among men in general.)

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 18:45

Not a chance @OldCrone , not a chance

OldCrone · 27/05/2025 18:43

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:40

Would it hurt to pretend to give a shit about other people occasionally between the sneers?

Just read what you've written and think about it for a moment...

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 18:41

Be less ridiculous and I will find you less funny

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:40

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 18:22

Did you make sure to wipe things down afterwards and remove the plastic sheeting to prevent contamination?

someone’s having a lovely afternoon with the role play as an oppressed minority

Would it hurt to pretend to give a shit about other people occasionally between the sneers?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/05/2025 18:22

Did you make sure to wipe things down afterwards and remove the plastic sheeting to prevent contamination?

someone’s having a lovely afternoon with the role play as an oppressed minority

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/05/2025 18:19

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:06

Is that a yes, you don't believe her, then?

She hasn't said anything. It's her husband we don't believe.

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 18:13

spannasaurus · 27/05/2025 18:08

It was Jolyon who made the claim. Has his wife also made that claim publically?

I too await to have the details published by his wife. There is something that doesn't fit together with his account. I hope that she is ok.

spannasaurus · 27/05/2025 18:08

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:06

Is that a yes, you don't believe her, then?

It was Jolyon who made the claim. Has his wife also made that claim publically?

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:06

Annoyedone · 27/05/2025 16:46

About as much as I believe it’s possible for a person to change sex and that a man can magically become a woman if he puts a dress on.

Is that a yes, you don't believe her, then?

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 18:04

EdithStourton · 27/05/2025 17:57

Maaaaaate....
There IS a* *'women vs trans' conflict. But you know this. Women have talked to you about sports, and safeguarding, and privacy, until we are blue in the face.

I'm not 'anti-trans'. I have hosted a TW in my own bloody house. I just don't want TW winning in women's sports, opening the metaphorical door to breaches of safeguarding, and hanging around in the ladies.

No apologies for being the sort of feminist who puts women first.

Did you make sure to wipe things down afterwards and remove the plastic sheeting to prevent contamination?

Seriously. Very few people in this country in 2025 have never been in the same house as a trans person. You say it like it's a heroic ordeal worthy of a medal. I've hosted people with 'gender critical' views in my house before. It's almost inescapable sadly.

EdithStourton · 27/05/2025 17:57

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 16:20

That was especially patronising.

You are still trying to present a 'women vs trans' conflict. Most feminists don't hold virulently anti-trans views and obfuscatory laundering of the labels doesn't change the harm they cause.

Maaaaaate....
There IS a* *'women vs trans' conflict. But you know this. Women have talked to you about sports, and safeguarding, and privacy, until we are blue in the face.

I'm not 'anti-trans'. I have hosted a TW in my own bloody house. I just don't want TW winning in women's sports, opening the metaphorical door to breaches of safeguarding, and hanging around in the ladies.

No apologies for being the sort of feminist who puts women first.

viques · 27/05/2025 17:50

Asking for a friend. Does using language such as non trans woman, cisgender woman, cis woman also count as obfuscatory label laundering? Or is it only obfuscatory label laundering when women speak about scientific and biological truths and use the words that have defined the human binary condition since our little green world tossed an evolutionary coin and -along with most plant species - the mammalian, avian, amphibian, reptilian, fish and insect species decided to go down the male and female takes two to tango option?

Helleofabore · 27/05/2025 17:50

I think what may have happened is that people stopped listening to the 'I have been banned from living the life I demand' message and that the hyperbole has now again reached that offensive height that we saw not so long ago. I see the hugely offensive comparisons with the holocaust is back on FWR again today.

All because women politely and bluntly said 'no'. And the Supreme Court clarified that no male person should have been accessing female single sex provisions under the EA.

It really has reached a crescendo now.

ArabellaScott · 27/05/2025 17:34

'eradication from society' - Butterfly here is talking about males being disallowed from using services and spaces allocated to women.

Any male is still free to use male spaces, and/or gender neutral spaces. But this isn't enough, apparently. Why aren't gender neutral spaces enough for you, Butterfly?

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