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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The words that have been pulled over your eyes

491 replies

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/05/2025 21:00

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

OP posts:
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Foxonbanister · 25/05/2025 22:50

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 21:39

Why not actually talk about the average man then (i.e not trans) instead of trans women all the time. There's a lot more needs doing in regard to mens behaviour in general without just zeroing in on trans women

Because transwomen are claiming we don't exist, as women, unless we have some unspecified 'feminine' essence of the kind used to oppress us (an essence which most women I've met do not have and do not want). We're arguing for our right to exist as women.

ArabellaScott · 25/05/2025 22:50

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:39

I find them different because I've suffered SA and various other forms of abuse from your average man but never from a trans woman. If you've all suffered that from trans women and in much larger amounts than from non trans men then I'll accept your obsession with trans women.
I'm not ducking out but I have to go bed now, up early for work.

I have suffered abuse from men including a man wearing wig/dress/lipstick. I don't know if by your metric this means I am allowed to discuss it or not. What is 'much larger amounts' - are you going on a proportionate basis, or just basic number of assaults? Do we weight different assaults on the severity of it? Type of abuse? Which counts as 'larger amounts' between, say, sexual harassment and indecent exposure? Look forward to more detailed info. We may need a spreadsheet.

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:49

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:39

I find them different because I've suffered SA and various other forms of abuse from your average man but never from a trans woman. If you've all suffered that from trans women and in much larger amounts than from non trans men then I'll accept your obsession with trans women.
I'm not ducking out but I have to go bed now, up early for work.

I see. So the definition apparently of a transwoman is that they have not committed any abusive act towards female people?

Are you fucking joking?

Plus I notice the goal posts have changed. Now it is ”suffered that from trans women and in much larger amounts than from non trans men then I'll accept your obsession with trans women.” Fucking hell. That is grim.

So rather than experience any abusive act, it now has to be experience it in much larger amounts?

Do you even hear yourself at this point ?

You are very ill informed.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/05/2025 22:48

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:39

I find them different because I've suffered SA and various other forms of abuse from your average man but never from a trans woman. If you've all suffered that from trans women and in much larger amounts than from non trans men then I'll accept your obsession with trans women.
I'm not ducking out but I have to go bed now, up early for work.

There are about 200 times as many men as trans women.

If you'd had the misfortune to be sexually assaulted 200 times by a male perpetrator, and one of those male perpetrators was a trans woman, that would be consistent with trans women being as dangerous as the average man.

Outside the sex trade, there are not many women who have been sexually assaulted 200 times.

TheKeatingFive · 25/05/2025 22:46

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:33

How many women on here have been sexually assaulted or attacked or had violence or aggression by non trans men? And how many have had that from trans women?

They're all men.

You know that hon.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/05/2025 22:42

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:02

Much like yourself presenting as a trans male the majority of trans women will present as trans women therefore I can see the difference between a trans woman and an average man

Yeah OK, we can see whether they are wearing a skirt or not.

What we can't see is whether they intend to harm us.

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:42

I think Flirt’s’ thread is going well.

We are having a real time demonstration in how language works to create falsity.

Because we have posts that imply that male people with transgender identities are not like the ‘average man’. So we should stop discussing those with transgender identities apparently. While not finding out how they are different at all!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/05/2025 22:41

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:22

I said that during my life I have had many instances of bad behaviour, sexual assault, perving, aggressive men etc etc but not once have I had that from a trans woman and I wondered why such emphasis is being put on trans women as I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women. I'm not saying never as there are some well known cases but in day to day life it's ordinary men.
We've already got the SC ruling so anyone trying to subvert that will find themselves in trouble. I don't see the need now to continually blame trans women.

Because trans women have no more claim on the rights, language and spaces of womanhood than any other man.

To fight the bad behaviour (sexual and social), the marginalistion, the overspeaking, the exploitation, the sexual objectification, assault and agression, women need to be able to speak clearly and unequivocally to men, to each other and to power about what it is to be female.

(TRA on behalf of) trans women's demands to remove "female" from the definition of a woman take our language away. Without female-specific language it becomes impossible to describe what is happening to us and why it happens. It disconnects our embodied female experiences from our history and from the rights, spaces and opportunities that were supposed to be there to support us in the challenges that being female brings.

Have you seen the sort of things that trans women believe (or claim to believe) women are to justify their claim to be "women" in ways that are in the mind rather than the body? How can we stand up to a society that belittles, objectifies and sexualises us if at the same time we allow those definitions of us as valid?

So for me, it's not that I am especially scared of trans women over other men (although I do think it's impossible to be a trans woman without a reductive and frankly somewhat fucked up idea of what womanhood entails, and for some of these men that idea of womanhood is extremely fucked up), it's that I think the assertion that womanhood is mental, sex doesn't matter and a man who feels like his idea of a woman has no meaningful difference to an actual woman is very very very harmful to women's ability to name and fight the exact male oppression that you highlight.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/05/2025 22:40

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:33

How many women on here have been sexually assaulted or attacked or had violence or aggression by non trans men? And how many have had that from trans women?

non trans men

😂

dearie, dearie me. I think you mean ‘men’

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:39

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:34

Looking forward to @NoKnittingAllowed telling us exactly how these male people are different from ‘average men’.

I find them different because I've suffered SA and various other forms of abuse from your average man but never from a trans woman. If you've all suffered that from trans women and in much larger amounts than from non trans men then I'll accept your obsession with trans women.
I'm not ducking out but I have to go bed now, up early for work.

Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 22:37

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:33

How many women on here have been sexually assaulted or attacked or had violence or aggression by non trans men? And how many have had that from trans women?

What does it matter if the victims of those assaulting trans women are on here or not? They exist.

Also, obviously, there are going to be a lot fewer victims of trans women than average men. That doesn't mean that the average trans woman is any less dangerous than the average man.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/05/2025 22:36

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:33

How many women on here have been sexually assaulted or attacked or had violence or aggression by non trans men? And how many have had that from trans women?

When are you going to attempt to answer, how does one tell the difference between a trans woman who doesn’t wish to cause harm from a male who does? Women everywhere would benefit from this crystal ball like insight. Do tell.

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:36

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:33

How many women on here have been sexually assaulted or attacked or had violence or aggression by non trans men? And how many have had that from trans women?

So you now expect women to recount their trauma ?

Well done.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/05/2025 22:35

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:24

What about the women who claim they're men? Are they creepy?

Cor

have you ever met any male and female humans? Do you have any understanding of male vs female sexuality? Your posts suggest not

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:34

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:04

How exactly?

Looking forward to @NoKnittingAllowed telling us exactly how these male people are different from ‘average men’.

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:33

Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 22:29

"I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women."

Trans women are statistically at least as dangerous to women as ordinary men. So no, in day to day life, it's not just ordinary men: it's trans women just as much.

Trust me, I'm not happy with those statistics, because I don't want to associate the trans women I know with such things.

But then again, I don't want to associate the ordinary men I know with their statistics either. Still have to, though.

How many women on here have been sexually assaulted or attacked or had violence or aggression by non trans men? And how many have had that from trans women?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/05/2025 22:33

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:22

I said that during my life I have had many instances of bad behaviour, sexual assault, perving, aggressive men etc etc but not once have I had that from a trans woman and I wondered why such emphasis is being put on trans women as I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women. I'm not saying never as there are some well known cases but in day to day life it's ordinary men.
We've already got the SC ruling so anyone trying to subvert that will find themselves in trouble. I don't see the need now to continually blame trans women.

Your complaisance is ill informed

according to the times yesterday there are 4 male murderers currently in women’s prisons in Scotland (https://www.thetimes.com/article/ff1e8e4e-09ab-4d28-a464-c448264cab88?shareToken=ea4c7fd13edf47f4a61f22ac55fdcd05)

men in women’s spaces is still very much A Thing

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Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 22:32

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:24

What about the women who claim they're men? Are they creepy?

Apparently, a lot of gay men find those of us who want to date them creepy, yes. Makes sense.

Dominoodles · 25/05/2025 22:32

StMarie4me · 25/05/2025 21:14

I cannot fathom someone putting so much energy into any of this if they are not trans.
It bothers me how bothered some of you are about other people’s genitalia.
I cannot imagine spending so much of my time thinking about this.
Creepy AF.

If you do not understand any of it, even if you disagree, then you are not listening.

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:32

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:26

They may say that but they actually can't. They will soon find themselves taken to court

Taken to court? Who will take each of them to court?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 25/05/2025 22:31

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:22

I said that during my life I have had many instances of bad behaviour, sexual assault, perving, aggressive men etc etc but not once have I had that from a trans woman and I wondered why such emphasis is being put on trans women as I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women. I'm not saying never as there are some well known cases but in day to day life it's ordinary men.
We've already got the SC ruling so anyone trying to subvert that will find themselves in trouble. I don't see the need now to continually blame trans women.

I’ve experienced instances of bad behaviour from men and trans women (also men). And?

Helleofabore · 25/05/2025 22:31

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:26

They may say that but they actually can't. They will soon find themselves taken to court

And in the meantime, we should just ignore the fact they are in our spaces? And just hope for the best?

Did you also miss the part where there are still male prisoners in female prisons? Or do those women not matter?

And still sports allowing male people into female sports? Do those women not matter either?

And just because you have no personal negative experience of male people with transgender identities, doesn’t mean others on this thread don’t have direct negative experience. Such as me. Am I allowed to discuss my need for those male people to be out of the spaces I need to be female only? Is it ok if I discuss it? Do I have your permission?

OakleyAnnie · 25/05/2025 22:30

StMarie4me · 25/05/2025 21:14

I cannot fathom someone putting so much energy into any of this if they are not trans.
It bothers me how bothered some of you are about other people’s genitalia.
I cannot imagine spending so much of my time thinking about this.
Creepy AF.

Spectacularly missing the point!

Seethlaw · 25/05/2025 22:29

NoKnittingAllowed · 25/05/2025 22:22

I said that during my life I have had many instances of bad behaviour, sexual assault, perving, aggressive men etc etc but not once have I had that from a trans woman and I wondered why such emphasis is being put on trans women as I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women. I'm not saying never as there are some well known cases but in day to day life it's ordinary men.
We've already got the SC ruling so anyone trying to subvert that will find themselves in trouble. I don't see the need now to continually blame trans women.

"I find it hard to believe that women in general have suffered all this behaviour from trans women."

Trans women are statistically at least as dangerous to women as ordinary men. So no, in day to day life, it's not just ordinary men: it's trans women just as much.

Trust me, I'm not happy with those statistics, because I don't want to associate the trans women I know with such things.

But then again, I don't want to associate the ordinary men I know with their statistics either. Still have to, though.

Leafstamp · 25/05/2025 22:27

Britinme · 25/05/2025 21:38

Imagination.

Ah, sorry, I tagged the wrong person!

was supposed to be @StMarie4me

@StMarie4me can you explain what makes someone trans or not trans?

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