The words that have been pulled over your eyes

And Joly boy citing ‘all the eminent KC’s I know’. It’s all bollocks.

And were they all called Albert Einstein and did everyone clap?

What exactly is a ‘non trans woman’? Is it the same as a ‘non man’?

Just in case you’re confused, there are two sexes, men and women, and everyone is either one or the other. There’s no need for prefixes.

Note how women who may have a trauma response to coming across a man in a female only space are characterised as 'bigots'.

The compassion and kindness and understanding are only expected to flow in one direction.

Given how many organisations and individuals have said publicly that they don't intend to abide by the Supreme Court judgment until absolutely forced to and perhaps not even then, I'm not sure why you have such a touching belief in the idea that female spaces are now entirely single-sex. Have you done any reading at all on this issue?

Relevant tweet from Victoria Smith today:

It's funny how some men think the agreement of only some women is needed to let male people into female-only spaces, but 100% of women need to be in agreement to refuse it. You'd have thought - at least if these men understood consent - it ought to be the other way round.

You’re breaking the law mate

hope that clears things up for you and your friends

A good reminder NS.

It is highly unlikely any female person who has any type of emotional investment in ensuring a male person is kept happy and unaware of the female person's discomfort will be honest about their true feelings on this topic.

It seems completely unbelievable that someone doesn't understand this fundamentally. But that takes brutal honesty about yourself and a depth of emotional intelligence about other people.

I'm reminded of this piece about Mridul Wadwha of Edinburgh Rape Crisis infamy.

https://virginiasroom.co.uk/f/on-validation-and-tolerance

Suddenly, my friend demanded our attention and asked us all, out of nowhere: "Is M a man or a woman?"

I looked immediately at M expecting that this question would seem impolite and intrusive to her, but I saw that she was welcoming it. I now realise that she had asked my friend, our host, to question us about how we perceived her.

[...]

I now understand better what happened that night. Some friends were having a good evening, men, women, trans or not, all together. There was acceptance and mutual respect. Then someone asked us to lie, or prove that we were willing to forgo truth and self-respect in order to validate someone else's identity.

[...]

Dear MW, it wasn't kind 14 years ago to ask us to lie, and I am truly sorry that I did, in the name of kindness.

Yes. ^this^

Yes, we know that you surround yourself with female people who have only ever told you that you should use the female single sex spaces.

However, we have not emotional investment in making you feel happy so we tell you the truth, to you directly. You don't like it, but you have been told something by women invested in your wellbeing who have acted as if they have the right to consent for all other female people. They don't have that right to give consent for all other female people.

You have also accepted their comments as if they are telling you to full truth when they might not have. They might never admit to you that your very presence in a female single sex space makes them uncomfortable for a variety of reasons.

If you break laws, you need to understand that just because a women who is heavily invested in telling you what you want to hear has said it was fine for you to use the female single sex space, it is not. And you need to be an adult and accept this.

Fight, flight, fawn, freeze.

Not many women are going to choose 'fight' when confronted with a male. Most choose 'fawn', especially if 'flight' isn't a socially acceptable option. Lots of them don't even realise they're doing it, these responses are so ingrained.

The response I got off a transwoman is hopefully it would result in more third spaces than they would work for them better.

No mates there validating.

I think some transwomen only surround themselves with friends who validate for a reason thus when they say 'well all my mates say', it's a little bit like Stalin saying 'well all my generals agree with me' in terms of only being surrounded by yes (wo)men.

every woman I know has told me off for feeling afraid to use female facilities'

The male entitlement is off the bloody scale. Who gives a shit what your mates say??

What the hell have other women's spaces got to do with them?

@ButterflyHatched

"it's annoying enough when it happens to any non-trans woman with short hair, above average height or who dares to be over the age of 40."

But not, weirdly enough, to trans men.

every woman I know has told me off for feeling afraid to use female facilities

Bully for them. I'm telling you now when you use women's facilities you will scare women, you will make women afraid, you will upset women. That includes rape survivors, women of certain religions, and women who are just unnerved by your male physiology, and those who just want privacy from men.

I know you don't care, and this won't stop you. But let nobody say you're not aware.

ButterflyHatched

You’re a transwoman. You’re male, always have been and always will be.

I’m not trying to be mean but truth matters.

…the many stories that have emerged since the SC ruling of so, so many non-trans women being challenged and harrassed due to pinging false positives is terrifying….

Provide just one (proven) incident otherwise it’s yet another TRA tale.

Don't you think it's hypocritical to agree that men violating women's boundaries are creeps, when you personally use women's spaces?

Which you've just been told, by the Supreme Court of the country, is a direct violation of the equality act.

Non trans woman? Such a long winded way of say woman!

Why are TIMs and TRAs so invested in women's toilets? They seem to be the only ones talking about genital inspections as well. Weirdos!

So I was talking to a transwoman the other day (shock horror yes I know a few). Anyway I decided to brave the subject of the SC ruling. Yep I went there, admittedly after a couple of drinks. We actually agreed on a number of points 1) one that it wasn't a bad thing for transwomen 2) it was being misrepresented and TRAs were being flaming ridiculous.

It was an interesting conversation all round and one that I think both of us felt was productive. Our mutual friends I think we slightly horrified at me going there because they were worried about where the conversation would go (I'm used to reading the room on this and knowing how far too push it). I did actually make the point about the fear of talking about difficult areas and actually how we should do more - weirdly me going there opened up the conversation for everyone which was much needed for all present for reasons I won't go into - there was a visible relief that I understood the ruling from the transwoman as he was clearly nearly as frustrated as me at all the bullshit over the subject!!!

What fascinating to me, is there is a definite fear and reluctance to talk about certain things AMONGST the trans community itself and the dominance of certain voices and certain political lines within that is definitely present. That needs to stop.

Some conversations are productive. Others not so much.

It's very comfortable for you having women 'tell you off' for not invading women's privacy, dignity etc and making it feel ok for you to do, but you know from being a MNetter that this is a problem and many women are not ok with this, are excluded, distressed, and it's led to assaults and worse.

The law thankfully means that it's no longer something negotiated between women and their Nigels and women have protections against it.

I was travelling with a sizeable group of non-trans women the day after the ruling was made.

I put the question to them, and they told me off for even considering using male or unisex facilities rather than the female ones I've used since childhood.

I'm a woman and every woman I know has told me off for feeling afraid to use female facilities since the SC ruling.

I still avoid them where possible - I've spent so much of my life avoiding bigots wherever possible that all the gleeful talk of toilet patrols, and the many stories that have emerged since the SC ruling of so, so many non-trans women being challenged and harrassed due to pinging false positives is terrifying.

I have no interest in unnecessarily being in the presence of people who have made transvestigation their all-consuming special interest to the point where they'll accuse anyone of being trans (and have now, bizarrely, started accusing trans women of secretly not being trans) - it's annoying enough when it happens to any non-trans woman with short hair, above average height or who dares to be over the age of 40.

Yep.
Someone hasn't read widely enough on this board, and has just popped in to let us know we're phobic oddballs. Or something.

Yes… I’m glad you agree on that. I mean, men pushing women’s boundaries to encroach on their language, spaces, sports and calling them names, threatening them and assaulting them come very definitely into that category don’t you agree?

This is an excellent point.