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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The words that have been pulled over your eyes

491 replies

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/05/2025 21:00

I initially wrote this as a reply to a thread in relationships, but rather than derail the thread I decided to post it in FWR as a thread in its own right about a common accusation made against gender critical feminists.

It is a response to the claim that the only people who object to the word "cis" are people who deny the existence of trans women, and that such people are transphobes.

"Transphobe", like "trans woman" and indeed "cis woman", are just the words trans activists use to hide what is really going on.

These words exist to hide one simple truth: Trans women are not, in any objective, real way, in any way outside their own heads, in any way that is real to anyone else, any closer to being a woman than any other man is.

"Trans women" in reality are just men who for some reason feel compelled (or sometimes just really want ) to adopt a cross-sex persona playing out whatever their idea of what a woman is.

The words exist to make it sound like a reasonable thing when such men demand that their wives, children, friends and family, colleagues, officials, all of society pretend they are women, let them enter private spaces for women, let them touch or counsel women in roles reserved for women, let them take prizes for women, let them speak for women.

Because we'd never accept that as ok from men. But it's ok for trans women, and if it's not ok that's transphobia.

And we'd never say women in general are more privileged and powerful than men, but call the men trans women and the women cis women and suddenly everyone nods along. And if they don't it's transphobia.

But I don't believe the thing that makes men and women different is our minds. And without that belief, the whole thing falls apart.

OP posts:
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Enough4me · 27/05/2025 01:15

Men could widen what it is to be male to accept all males equally. This way females keep their spaces and all males are accommodated regardless of labels, clothes, body alterations. It's win-win.

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 01:10

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/05/2025 01:01

No one wants to eradicate you from public life. They just expect you to behave like an adult and stop appropriating female-only resources and language.

These things are not for you. They never were. They exist to support female people with the risks and challenges that being female in society brings.

I am sorry that the movement that was supposed to do the same for trans people veered off into a nasty and confrontational land grab of the things women built instead of doing something positive to support trans people in their own right, but it is absolutely not too late to change that. You can start to advocate for trans-friendly third spaces and accomodations any time and channel your disappointment away from misogyny and into real change. I wish you luck.

Unfortunately I've seen no evidence that you would not continue to sneer at trans lives and bodies and organise efforts to harass and further marginalise us no matter how much of ourselves we cut away trying to please you. Some of us have tried, to great personal cost.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/05/2025 01:01

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 00:51

I was responding to Datun, who made a snippy comment about unisex toilets knowing full well that these rarely exist in many practical situations.

I really don't find toilets an engaging subject to have to spend my time arguing, lobbying and protesting over, but I never asked for any of this nonsense. I just want to get on with my fucking life and not spend it begging hordes of people who want to ban essential healthcare and eradicate me from public life to maybe please show me a measure of humanity.

No one wants to eradicate you from public life. They just expect you to behave like an adult and stop appropriating female-only resources and language.

These things are not for you. They never were. They exist to support female people with the risks and challenges that being female in society brings.

I am sorry that the movement that was supposed to do the same for trans people veered off into a nasty and confrontational land grab of the things women built instead of doing something positive to support trans people in their own right, but it is absolutely not too late to change that. You can start to advocate for trans-friendly third spaces and accomodations any time and channel your disappointment away from misogyny and into real change. I wish you luck.

OP posts:
Enough4me · 27/05/2025 00:58

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 00:56

Unfortunately it's been a constant torrent of hostility and abuse ever since I finally mustered up the courage to start begging them to ease off the pressure on the knife they were holding to the throat of trans kids dependent upon GnRH agonists years ago. There seem to be very few threads about feminism, and a great deal dedicated toward sneering at or organising efforts to abuse or further marginalise trans people.

The knife shouldn't be used neither should drugs.
Mental health support for dysphoria is needed.

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 00:56

DeepGreyFox · 27/05/2025 00:49

It's very sad what this board has become. Page after page and thread after thread of venom against trans women. Looking back on old threads it was actually an interesting and useful place where discussions about feminism actually happened. Now it's just quite sickening to read. You'd be forgiven for thinking you were reading the comments in the Daily Fail.

Unfortunately it's been a constant torrent of hostility and abuse ever since I finally mustered up the courage to start begging them to ease off the pressure on the knife they were holding to the throat of trans kids dependent upon GnRH agonists years ago. There seem to be very few threads about feminism, and a great deal dedicated toward sneering at or organising efforts to abuse or further marginalise trans people.

Enough4me · 27/05/2025 00:53

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 00:51

I was responding to Datun, who made a snippy comment about unisex toilets knowing full well that these rarely exist in many practical situations.

I really don't find toilets an engaging subject to have to spend my time arguing, lobbying and protesting over, but I never asked for any of this nonsense. I just want to get on with my fucking life and not spend it begging hordes of people who want to ban essential healthcare and eradicate me from public life to maybe please show me a measure of humanity.

Not eradicated...are male.

Enough4me · 27/05/2025 00:53

I see the opposite of negativity.
It's amazing to see the strength of feeling for women supporting women. I guess women know what it's like to have to fight to have, and protect, their rights.

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 00:51

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/05/2025 00:28

Wow. You think this was about toilets? You really don't give a shit about women outside their usefulness to you do you?

I suggest you take the time to understand the journey FWS took to get to the SC.

(And i can't believe I have to explain this to an adult, but no you won't "cease to exist in public life" just because you have to use the facilities for your sex rather than those of some imaginary group of "the womanny minded" you invented for yourself to belong to that never actually existed outside the imagination of gender ideologues.)

I was responding to Datun, who made a snippy comment about unisex toilets knowing full well that these rarely exist in many practical situations.

I really don't find toilets an engaging subject to have to spend my time arguing, lobbying and protesting over, but I never asked for any of this nonsense. I just want to get on with my fucking life and not spend it begging hordes of people who want to ban essential healthcare and eradicate me from public life to maybe please show me a measure of humanity.

DeepGreyFox · 27/05/2025 00:49

It's very sad what this board has become. Page after page and thread after thread of venom against trans women. Looking back on old threads it was actually an interesting and useful place where discussions about feminism actually happened. Now it's just quite sickening to read. You'd be forgiven for thinking you were reading the comments in the Daily Fail.

Enough4me · 27/05/2025 00:48

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 19:15

I was travelling with a sizeable group of non-trans women the day after the ruling was made.

I put the question to them, and they told me off for even considering using male or unisex facilities rather than the female ones I've used since childhood.

I'm a woman and every woman I know has told me off for feeling afraid to use female facilities since the SC ruling.

I still avoid them where possible - I've spent so much of my life avoiding bigots wherever possible that all the gleeful talk of toilet patrols, and the many stories that have emerged since the SC ruling of so, so many non-trans women being challenged and harrassed due to pinging false positives is terrifying.

I have no interest in unnecessarily being in the presence of people who have made transvestigation their all-consuming special interest to the point where they'll accuse anyone of being trans (and have now, bizarrely, started accusing trans women of secretly not being trans) - it's annoying enough when it happens to any non-trans woman with short hair, above average height or who dares to be over the age of 40.

Born male, use the mens. You have the right to use those loos and no man also using them should stop you.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/05/2025 00:28

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 00:16

And in the vast, vast majority of cases where there is no unisex toilet or where doing so would impact the availability of already limited accessible toilet spaces, I should just get fucked and cease to exist in public life?

The ruling was bad enough. The way it has been taken well out of its original context by Falkner's small cabal of anti-trans extremists and turned into an all-you-can-eat transphobia buffet up and down the country is absolutely chilling.

If you'd told any normal person a decade ago that the UK would indulge a patently unenforceable, deeply harmful and completely deranged trans segregationist initiative over toilets, of all fucking things...

Wow. You think this was about toilets? You really don't give a shit about women outside their usefulness to you do you?

I suggest you take the time to understand the journey FWS took to get to the SC.

(And i can't believe I have to explain this to an adult, but no you won't "cease to exist in public life" just because you have to use the facilities for your sex rather than those of some imaginary group of "the womanny minded" you invented for yourself to belong to that never actually existed outside the imagination of gender ideologues.)

OP posts:
WithSilverBells · 27/05/2025 00:25

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 00:16

And in the vast, vast majority of cases where there is no unisex toilet or where doing so would impact the availability of already limited accessible toilet spaces, I should just get fucked and cease to exist in public life?

The ruling was bad enough. The way it has been taken well out of its original context by Falkner's small cabal of anti-trans extremists and turned into an all-you-can-eat transphobia buffet up and down the country is absolutely chilling.

If you'd told any normal person a decade ago that the UK would indulge a patently unenforceable, deeply harmful and completely deranged trans segregationist initiative over toilets, of all fucking things...

Your anger always ramps up in these posts as the women saying no to you inflames your male entitlement.
Use the toilets allocated to your sex, or use unisex toilets. You should never have been using women's toilets because you are not a woman.

RedToothBrush · 27/05/2025 00:23

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 23:20

Would you prefer I say 'cisgender women' or 'cis women' for short?

I'd prefer if you would admit the following

You are a man.
You surround yourself with yes men / women.
You twist words to suit yourself always centring you. Thats what this nonsense about 'non-trans women' is about - not because we dislike the word cis. Its a petty 'lets get one over on them'. And thats utterly what is all about.

But I don't expect you'll ever admit that for a second...

You think the whole world should revolve around you, and you've set up the world you live in to enable that and shun / close out everything and everyone who says no.

You deny that women have a problem, because you don't want to know because it doesn't suit you. Even when women TELL you its not ok.

You then scream persecution all the while CONTINUING to impose yourself on women and CONTINUE to deny that women take issue.

Its not persecution, to speak the truth. Being unable to speak the truth means someone is abusing power.

We get it. We see through it. We see you.

ButterflyHatched · 27/05/2025 00:16

Datun · 27/05/2025 00:05

Well, now all those women who don't mind, can join you in the unisex toilet.

It's a win for everyone.

And in the vast, vast majority of cases where there is no unisex toilet or where doing so would impact the availability of already limited accessible toilet spaces, I should just get fucked and cease to exist in public life?

The ruling was bad enough. The way it has been taken well out of its original context by Falkner's small cabal of anti-trans extremists and turned into an all-you-can-eat transphobia buffet up and down the country is absolutely chilling.

If you'd told any normal person a decade ago that the UK would indulge a patently unenforceable, deeply harmful and completely deranged trans segregationist initiative over toilets, of all fucking things...

Datun · 27/05/2025 00:05

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 23:40

You seem to be self-identifying as an expert on the behaviour of the vast, vast majority of women who haven't devoted their lives to anti-trans crusading. Unfortunately it's evident that you have convinced yourself that every other non-trans woman lives her life in a cloud of perpetual transvestigatory paranoia.

I hope you are able to find a new special interest one day, and maybe some new people to talk to about it as well.

Well, now all those women who don't mind, can join you in the unisex toilet.

It's a win for everyone.

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 23:40

Helleofabore · 26/05/2025 20:34

Yes, we know that you surround yourself with female people who have only ever told you that you should use the female single sex spaces.

However, we have not emotional investment in making you feel happy so we tell you the truth, to you directly. You don't like it, but you have been told something by women invested in your wellbeing who have acted as if they have the right to consent for all other female people. They don't have that right to give consent for all other female people.

You have also accepted their comments as if they are telling you to full truth when they might not have. They might never admit to you that your very presence in a female single sex space makes them uncomfortable for a variety of reasons.

If you break laws, you need to understand that just because a women who is heavily invested in telling you what you want to hear has said it was fine for you to use the female single sex space, it is not. And you need to be an adult and accept this.

You seem to be self-identifying as an expert on the behaviour of the vast, vast majority of women who haven't devoted their lives to anti-trans crusading. Unfortunately it's evident that you have convinced yourself that every other non-trans woman lives her life in a cloud of perpetual transvestigatory paranoia.

I hope you are able to find a new special interest one day, and maybe some new people to talk to about it as well.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/05/2025 23:25

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 23:20

Would you prefer I say 'cisgender women' or 'cis women' for short?

You know the right word lovey, you’re just trying to wind people up because you’re furious about women saying no to you

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 23:20

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/05/2025 23:13

Nah, you use that language because you like trying to wind women up because you don’t like us very much

Edited

Would you prefer I say 'cisgender women' or 'cis women' for short?

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 23:19

Myalternate · 26/05/2025 19:41

ButterflyHatched

You’re a transwoman. You’re male, always have been and always will be.

I’m not trying to be mean but truth matters.

…the many stories that have emerged since the SC ruling of so, so many non-trans women being challenged and harrassed due to pinging false positives is terrifying….

Provide just one (proven) incident otherwise it’s yet another TRA tale.

Suppose you could ask Claire Prihartini

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/05/2025 23:13

Nah, you use that language because you like trying to wind women up because you don’t like us very much

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 23:06

mrshoho · 26/05/2025 19:38

Non trans woman? Such a long winded way of say woman!

Why are TIMs and TRAs so invested in women's toilets? They seem to be the only ones talking about genital inspections as well. Weirdos!

I've been scolded for using the more technical prefix to signify not-trans, so I just say not-trans in places that aren't trans-friendly. It takes a bit longer to type and feels a bit awkward, but it's hard to have a discussion on the subject otherwise.

Helleofabore · 26/05/2025 22:39

I keep remembering a male activist with a transgender identity who I came across around Christmas, Verity maybe the name.. I can't be sure. Anyway, they were posting on twitter about how they pass. And yet, when you saw the selfies and the family photos, they really didn't pass even in photos. Yet, this person was posting very confidently in replies that they passed.

I really think that some people will only hear what they want to hear and will dismiss the rest as being hateful and untrue. When in fact, people who are heavily invested in not upsetting this person have obviously told them that they pass whereas they don't pass in photos even. Their facial cues are male.

There is danger in only listening to people who will say whatever is expected to keep someone happy and on side.

Datun · 26/05/2025 22:21

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 26/05/2025 21:23

You’re breaking the law mate

hope that clears things up for you and your friends

I don't believe it, anyway.

And I don't really get what it's meant to prove. Is butterfly walking around in public, taking a coterie of approving women with him everywhere??

Or is he phoning them up and saying right I'm in Marks & Spencer's, do you think I should use the ladies? What about now, I'm at the George and Dragon, what do you think? I'm at Paddington...

Because I honestly cannot believe that my mate says it's okay, so fuck you, would be spoken by any kind of adult

Are we really at the level of look, if your mate said to jump off a bridge...

Annoyedone · 26/05/2025 22:16

I thought @ButterflyHatched had said boundary transgressing men were creeps. Is Butters saying that any TW transgressing women’s boundaries and entering women’s spaces is a creep?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 26/05/2025 22:16

ButterflyHatched · 26/05/2025 17:44

Boundary-pushing creeps are horrendous - I'm so sorry. 🚩

My irony meter just exploded.

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