The words that have been pulled over your eyes

Yep

totally

Nine times out of ten I'm not even talking to butterfly when addressing him, I know what he's going to say. The record never changes.

I just want other people to hear it.

A very useful lesson.

Absolutely this.

Can you understand how that made women feel?

There’s really no point asking ButterflyHatched that. I would go so far as to say the only reasons to engage with him are to test your own views and explain them to others and to learn a little something about cluster B personalities. You ain’t ever gonna change his mind.

It’s why going to court is important. There are some people who aren’t really capable of ever playing nicely with others and one of the things we buy with our taxes is having a state to deal with them.

They are female. Women are at statistically very low risk of assault from other females. If trans men are in male spaces, men are not at risk of assault from them either. Risk to men’s privacy is a concern. But men can take that one up.

And the odd fawning comment about how mean we are which, almost without fail get quoted because they validate the persecution complex. All whilst the difficult questions get ignored because they don't help sustain the manufactured world and identity.

The selective reading is most odd isn't it? Oh wait no it's not, if you think it's about the I/me/my and only listening to yes (wo)men.

I've been thinking about this some more and I've come to the conclusion that people like @ButterflyHatched don't actually believe there is any such thing as a womanny identity that we all share.

I think it is simpler than that.

They know that they are not biologically female, like women are.

They know that there is nothing women have in common with each other beyond being biologically female.

They know that they have nothing in common with women as a group.

They just don't care.

"I am a woman because that is how I identify" doesn't mean, "I am a woman because women have X, Y and Z in common and I fit those criteria." It means, "I want to use women's spaces and believe that I am entitled to do so and I don't really care what women think about that because I am the main character in this story and they are the chorus."

It's all in the pronouns.

People like @ButterflyHatched may claim that their pronouns are "she/her" but the pronouns they use 95% of the time are "I/me/my".

Lolyon is telling porkie pies anyway.

Trans women look like men with breasts, not women without breasts.

And some women are just naturally flat as a pancake anyway.

I can't imagine even noticing another woman's breasts or lack of in a public toilet situation.

And even if I did meet a woman in a single sex space and notice that she had no breasts, I wouldn't think anything of it.

Lolyon probably thinks this story is convincing because when he meets a woman his first instinct is to ogle her breasts and he thinks other people including women all do the same thing. Only a man could think this.

It's pathetic. Grown men saying they've being killed and annihilated because they have to use the gents and can't play on women's sports teams.

It's bloody risible they claim to be women. They wouldn't stand a chance in hell of coping with womanhood.

They love the martyrdom don’t they? The narcissism on display is something to behold, they’re like giant toddlers having a tantrum 😂

What shines the beacon even brighter on male entitlement where male people will still resort to using female single sex toilets rather than use the one that corresponds with their sex, is that female people with transgender identities who feel their deliberate choices in taking hormones that gave them male body cues that might distress some other women find alternative solutions all the time. They actually make the effort and plan their days.

They tell us this. They don’t complain that society wishes they didn’t exist, they don’t call people deranged for wanting single sex spaces and they don’t lazily use female toilets because they couldn’t find another solution. They actively accept their past choices have meant they have to find equitable solutions and they just do it.

The male entitlement of refusing to do the same and to just continue to use the female single sex toilet when convenient, when it suits them, and to protest being excluded is stark in comparison. But this behaviour is repeated over and over.

And then those very same male people wonder why other people talk about male entitlement and never understanding female behaviour patterns beyond the superficial ones they have adopted.

Why would I ?

Her husband isn’t really a very reliable source.

I highly doubt that she has ever been bothered by other women ‘accusing’ her of being a man. Women would be very understanding and sympathetic to a woman that had need to undergo such devastating surgery. Thousands of women have had mastectomies and it’s really unforgivable for JM to use his wife’s surgery in such a risible way.

In fact it only proves it’s men that believe Women are somehow less womanly if they’ve had their breasts removed.

btw… Women are far more accepting of other women that choose to live their lives as men, especially because women have continually and historically been subjected to abuse both physically and mentally by men it’s no surprise they want to escape it by any means possible.

If you feel there’s nothing here for you then why ‘torture’ yourself by coming here?

it's for martyr points and backslapping on Twitter.

Can the transwomen explain what is so dangerous about using the men's facilities. Is it because you fear for being physically attacked by fellow men? Would it be wrong to say 'men just want to pee and 99.9% would be no threat to you'. Also being biologically male yourself wouldn't you being a physical match for any potential attack. Is there some other reason why you are against using the men's toilets? Do you really expect everybody else to treat you as a biological woman?

As women we were told over and over when we campaigned for single sex spaces that our fears were exaggerated and we shouldn't tar all TW with the same brush when we gave real examples of assaults committed by males in women's spaces.We were told to ignore our instincts and keep quiet if we came across a potential threat to our safety. Can you understand how that made women feel?

Absolutely love this ⬆️

Please show me where women have ‘organise efforts to harass and further marginalise us’, because all I’ve seen is women requesting our legal rights to spaces without you in them, something which you clearly object very strongly to. You have no right to be in our spaces, what you and other trans people decide to do to your bodies is entirely your choice.

As far as women are concerned, no amount of surgery or body modification will ever make you a woman, so you are not welcome or entitled to be in our spaces. You choose the road you’re on, no woman has ever asked anything of you other than to stay out of our spaces.

Tbf I have long been convinced that butters is a deep state double agent for T.E.R.F. Surely No one could be that lacking in awareness of the effect of what they say

Oh dear, now we have the hyperbolic and hysterical language coming into play, you really stick to the script don’t you?!

Mumsnet is primarily for women, because only women can be mothers, the clue is in the name. If you feel there’s nothing here for you then why ‘torture’ yourself by coming here? We will not bend to your will, we’ve heard all of the hyperbole, threats, abuse, coercive behaviour and lots more besides. It doesn’t work anymore.

Nobody is telling you to cease to exist, you just use the men's. It's not hard.

If using toilets in the company of male people is unthinkable for you, why do you expect women to use toilets in the company of male people like you?

How about you show women ‘a measure of humanity’ by staying out of our spaces? How about you accept that you don’t have the right to trample all over us because of your feelings and your beliefs about yourself. How about you stop expecting women to validate you and always put you first. How about you show a bit of humanity to women in general.

You do know you have a choice about reading it? There’s no venom, we are simply having to explain that men aren’t women, and due to the clarification of the law after the SC ruling, that those men who have been using facilities specifically designed for women can no longer do so, and have in fact, been breaking the law up to now.

I presently can’t think of anything more important than asserting our rights as women to spaces and sports and gatherings that are free of men. But please feel free to offer a list of things that you feel are more important, because many of us also fight other battles for women in our everyday lives.

‘If you'd told any normal person a decade ago that the UK would indulge a patently unenforceable, deeply harmful and completely deranged system where women are supposed to accept men in their single sex spaces, prisons, sports and rape crisis centres, people would believe you’d lost your mind’

There, fixed it for you. HTH.

And of course TRAs want it segregated. That's the whole bloody point. They don't want the entire country to be unisex. They want segregation for everyone else, just not them

Of course. They don't want to risk other men interrupting their unfettered access!

And here we have it, the patronising, just short of abusive behaviour, because you haven’t been able to control the narrative, because we’re not acquiescing to your beliefs.

It’s so predictable and laughable that you clearly think you bother us with this nonsense, it’s ‘operation let them speak’ in action, every time even one woman who hasn’t quite peaked reads this rubbish, it’s one more brick being dismantled from this insidious, regressive, misogynistic ideology.