Police could search women's homes and phones after pregnancy loss

It’s quite idiotic really - so I assume they are concerned about misuse of abortion drugs which are not hard to get hold of via post and not always subject to having a scan to verify dates ? So the issue is not to give police advice on how to deal with such a situation but actually maybe make access to the service easier, quicker and scan everyone in a timely fashion who requests this option? Or would that be too easy and take power away .

I can’t imagine the trauma of a late term miscarriage or stillbirth and this level of scrutiny.

I bet a lot of people delete their tracking apps

I assumed that the article was going to be about police in the US.

Guidelines that were designed with an eye to uncovering domestic abuse by a partner would be very different to this. These guidelines (at least the bits about illegal use of aborticants and abortions outside current timelines) primarily focus suspicion on the mother.

There will always be those who seek to abuse power.

Which is why to focus on the legislation and try to make it watertight and test it for loopholes etc.

As I said, we don’t have to change the criteria under which doctors are allowed to abort to remove this draconian threat from women.

The current law puts them under suspicion for any unexpected miscarriage or still birth.

I'd be interested to know the pluses too. The benefits for women to be specific.

However I think the main concern is the we dont't trust the police anymore.

This? Yes. The Police, the Government, everyone needs to get the police to stop faffing around and get the trust back.

ETA: forgot to mention. I am baffled by this constant need to seize devices. Given how easy it is to dump all the data (for the police) and to monitor them (with warrants, i presume) i fail to see how the police or any other authorities seem able to grab people's device (victims in particular) for longer than a couple of hours

What are the pluses in your view?

I haven't read the whole thread or even the article. But I can see some of the plus and negatives.

However I think the main concern is the we dont't trust the police anymore.

The basis for the change is probably based on a good reason but as we all know the police cannot always be trusted.

And I say this as a person who has good friends and relatives in the force, but also as someone who has watched as the whole "what is a woman" debate has escalated into levels of madness within our Police Forces.

It's not necessiarly under the OATP Act. It depends on jurisdiction. The guidelines are worth a read.

There are unfortunately circumstances where a stillbirth will require investigation.

The guidelines repeatedly state that a woman's medical needs must take precedence, and that great care and sensitivity is needed, talk about vulnerability and support, etc.

Of course guidelines are open to misinterpretation and need to be tested rigorously for loopholes that could be abused by rogue officers, etc. Mention is made of the need for specially trained officers, and the need for a multi agency approach.

Here are the relevant search quotes:

'Search strategy

A search of relevant premises should be considered where it is suspected that an abortifacient has been taken to terminate a pregnancy outside of the legally permitted circumstances. The search objectives will be dependent on the information forming the basis of the cause for concern but will likely need to include abortifacient(s), packaging, documentation and empty medication blister packs.
...
'Evidence of knowledge and intention in relation to the pregnancy may be demonstrated through digital evidence. The seizure and examination of digital devices used by the woman during her pregnancy should be considered. Internet search history, digital communications with third parties, and health apps such as menstrual cycle and fertility trackers may all provide information to help investigators establish a woman’s knowledge and intention in relation to the pregnancy.
Many people are reliant on their digital devices to contact family and friends, and access other sources of information and support. Consideration must be given to the impact of seizing digital devices from a woman under investigation in these very difficult circumstances. Where it is necessary to seize digital devices lead investigators should consider providing the woman with a replacement device if the seizure of devices would inhibit access to family, friends or sources of support during the investigation, and there are no other means of communication available to the woman.'

DV is known to increase during pregnancy, and unfortunately stillbirth risks increase in abusive relationships:

'The new study also found links between stillbirth and abusive relationships. Women who declined to answer a question about domestic abuse were over 4x more likely to experience stillbirth (6.70% vs 2.61%) – but those who answered yes did not have a higher risk, possibly because their willingness to disclose this information to researchers meant they’d also done so to other external parties who could then intervene to protect mother and baby. '

www.manchester.ac.uk/about/news/higher-stillbirth-risk-for-mothers-experiencing-deprivation-unemployment-stress-and-domestic-abuse-in-pregnancy/

the thing that stands out for me - this is under the Offences Against The Person act.

I can imagine enthusiastic plod really going to town searching some poor woman's flat because her partner shopped her to the police (whether or not she actually did anything)

But when that same woman was at the police station reporting coercive control, or physical violence... crickets.

We KNOW this is just another stick to beat women with while ignoring the real domestic problems.

How often does this happen that we need to have articles about it? compared to, say, killed women?

then. Sieze. The. Man's. Phone. FGS it's not rocket science

that's a very charitable take on a force/country that has no interest in establishing and preserving women's rights.

I did not know that the 'Offences to the Person Act' didn't exttend to Scotland.

'In England, Wales and Northern Ireland the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 contained the offence of administering drugs or using instruments to procure abortion (section 58) and the offence of procuring drugs to cause abortion (section 59). The Offences Against the Person Act 1861 has never
extended to Scotland. In Northern Ireland the section 58-59 offences were repealed in 201928. The offences remain in force as enacted in England and Wales.
The Abortion Act 1967 applies to England, Wales and Scotland and in certain circumstances makes lawful actions that would otherwise constitute offences in England and Wales under sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. '

https://library.college.police.uk/docs/NPCC/Practice-advice-child-death-investigation-2024.pdf

I think that is the new Guidance. Published December 2024?

I guess because it could be considered evidence, it would also mean the woman couldn’t be pressured into destroying her phone by someone else, and lastly it’s possible she could be bombarded with phone threats from a gang who knows she was talking to police 🤷
Im just thinking off the top of my head here, my knowledge of police procedures comes from watching The Bill.

So why would you need to confiscate a victim's phone to find this?

Because the woman’s phone might have a bunch of threatening texts on it indicating violence or coercive control while her partner or pimp would have a burner phone or something that they could dump somewhere.

Police aren’t choosing to do this - the government is telling them to do this. There’s a big difference. Don’t shoot the messenger.

It's another tactic designed to make women more isolated and vulnerable. In my view.

No.

Of course they haven't. Only a woman of psychopathic cruelty could possibly endorse this.

Doctors in the UK (I’m not sure about Ireland) have to check how many weeks a woman is pregnant before allowing an abortion. It wouldn’t be right for doctors to say yes to every abortion. Someone could be in their third trimester and aborting. Third trimester abortion is only allowed if the foetus has serious issues with it or mum would die because she has certain serious physical health issues.

Police can already investigate things like this if they have due cause, it seems they want it to be easier to do this. I wonder if the end goal is to be able to ask women and be permitted to investigate as a default rather than if there are reasons its suspected, which is horrific.

I haven't read the article. But maybe its to stop women taking abortion drugs far too late and resulting in a life birth. It's all horrific IMHO. And a few infanticide cases have made the headlines recently.

Is there an epidemic of these, then?

Don't all our rights seem somewhat permissive? Especially when viewed globally.

We've just had the right to classify ourselves as a distinct class clarified and yet so many organisations, men and misogynist women are saying, essentially, they don't give us permission for even that.