TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

People can be vulnerable and abusive to others at the same time. Also, we tolerate behaviour from our children that we shouldnt from anyone else.

The thing is, every person will have reasons why they or their children should be the exception - they are going through a lot, theyll grow out of it, they'll calm down their behaviour once settled, they arent making too big a demand of anyone else.

But meanwhile, as a society, we are all expecting to tolerate boundaries being erroded. Even if its just pressure to remember to call someones child 'they/them'. And its not one child, or one friends husband, its so many people all at once. Its never ending.

It's just honest.

Whenever women are blunt about how they feel, without prioritising men's feelings, it's seen as impolite.

Men imitating women and claiming to be women is deeply offensive to many women. Just as Rachel Dolezal claiming to be black was offensive.

It isn’t the question “do you have any evidence?”

It is the last paragraph of the post that is certainly not “politely phrased”.

I find it hard to judge getting tone right on here, so BlueJeans, it would help me greatly if you could quote which bit is an attack, as I can't see it - is it simply 'do you have any evidence?'

I do agree with you that the loud and violent individuals who seem to delight in whipping up division are absolutely screwing up things for everyone else.

I politely disagree

That's not an aggressive post, BlueJeans. It's a perfectly politely phrased question.

There's no need to attack. I'm not going to answer that because you're being aggressive.

Do you have any evidence?

My guess would be that most "trans people" are very young and immature and intolerant, whether in a vulnerable or an aggressive kind of way.

My guess would be that most "decent and well-meaning" trans people are older and what some might call "true trans".... and are small in number.

I would also say that if someone who was "decent and well-meaning" there is a strong argument to be had that they would (1) keep their paraphilia private, if indeed they are an autogynephile or transvestic fetishists; (2) seek mental health treatment for the MH issues if they are dysphoric or have a multitude of MH issues like many who claim to be trans seem to have; and (3) do their best to avoid presenting in public as a grotesque and (IMHO) offensive parody of the opposite sex.

Would it improve your relationship with your child if you were to use their preferred pronouns, or is that something you feel you cannot do? I decided to but it's not easy.

They are also dominating the conversation in trans circles and misleading people like my son into the belief that "misgendering" is an expression of, at best, lack of acceptance, and, at worst, hatred.

I do think the majority of trans people are decent and well-meaning, and they are all someone's loved son or daughter, not this minority of awful people who causing trouble and making life difficult for everyone. As a parent of a peaceful trans person I wish they would just shut up and go away. They are making everyone look bad and causing fear to women and people in general.

Having read all your posts on this thread it’s very clear that you, and other TW like you (and I do know of others) are not the problem, and never have been. The SC ruling was needed due to the AGPs and toxic offenders who used self-ID as a way to impose on and intimidate women. Sadly these toxic TiMs are often the loudest voices, and reasonable, rational people like you get drowned out by the noise they make.

@MumOfYoungTransAdult thanks for sharing that must be tough and you seem to handle the situation as best you can.

My DC also has autism - I forgot to say that 😊Luckily for my sanity my DC is adult and lives independently so his sexual practices are not my business and if he has dodgy attitudes to women that's not for me to fix any more. DC has to figure it out, nagivate toilets etc for himself, and I'll only give an opinion if I'm asked (I'm not). DC has decided to take cross-sex hormones and DH and I are both hugely distressed about it but it's DC's decision to make. We've had some conversations with DC about that but DH and I have to accept we only have limited influence.

I get by by being very boundaried myself and looking for the positives. I'm glad DC has supportive friends and a partner. They are all rather vulnerable people and more in favour of transition than I would like but they don't seem to be pressuring DC or trying to alienate him from family which is a very good thing. Our wider family accept DC at face value, DC is welcomed at family events and like us they use his chosen name and pronouns (in real life that is - I'm still using sex-based pronouns here)

There have been a few people in my extended family who were mentally ill, or in trouble with the law, or taking drugs, or abusive, nothing to do with trans, and I'm aware there's only so much that family can do. One good thing, I don't feel that DC is doing harm to anyone else.

It's confusing and I can't claim to be consistent but we muddle along.

Just come back to this thread and am glad to see it proceeding in a balanced and calm manner. How much has been revealed and understood because of a genuine attempt to communicate between different opinions.

In the real world women are still having to share spaces with natal males, even while those natal males are whimpering about how all their rights to exist have been cruelly snatched away from them. I am completely amazed at how much capture the TWAW argument has achieved in such a short time.

The blame for all the bad feeling around this issue comes from the 'no debate' brigade, the people who made it clear that any scientific research into trans medicine, such as that proposed by James Caspian, would be offensive and politically incorrect. That was 8 years ago. How much more information and understanding would we have now. Wouldn't that be better for everyone?

As well as the safety and well being of women, my biggest concern is our children and young people, and the huge risks they are facing from this extreme movement. As OP has shown, as well as several well known TW, it is perfectly possible to successfully transition as an adult male, many have had marriages and children first. I wish OP all the best for the future.

Totally agree, MumOfYoungTransAdult. I'm the Dad of a trans-identified son, and our family has been badly damaged. I have several concerns about my son (who has an autism diagnosis). One is that he is under pressure to divorce himself from his family, especially his parents. If he stops seeing his wider family, I believe that will be disastrous for him. Another is that he may inadvisedly take hormones or surgery. And another is that he may get in with the worst of the TRAs, with their dubious sexual practices and their appalling attitude to women.

Before he came out with the trans declaration, he was someone who valued rational thinking, valued and respected his family including us, and was active in supporting and encouraging women in his line of work. Most or all of that seems to have disappeared, or is hanging on by a thread. I can't say whether or not he is happier, but trans ideology has messed up a lot of his support network and replaced it with a very heavy dependency on his partner, who is not very stable, and various friends who appear to be fine with the idea of him damaging his physical health and cutting himself off from those who have loved him throughout his whole life. I don't believe they will be there for him if his health and mental health go pear-shaped. We will, if he can swallow his pride and come back to us.

Indeed, us mothers of sons can't just say "it's men's problem" because these are still our children. We absolutely do care about neutral pathways to a better future for our children, male and female. Along with caring for women's rights because we're women and we also have mothers and sisters and daughters to care about.

One of the miserable things about earlier psychological approaches to trans - and I include Az Hakeem in this - is that they are purely individualistic. They don't (or didn't) consider the effects on the rest of the family, or the rest of society. Psychologists have "treated" dysphoria by letting men "transition" or "live as women" without regard for what that does to the other people around them. If it makes the individual happier or better able to hold down a job or whatever, that's good. And that attitude is passed on to wider society. Well, I suppose it's two-way traffic.

So when a court says no, wider society matters too, you can't "live as women" when you're not women (or vice versa for men) then that's going to come as a shock.

If ... .... you might have found some women who cared about finding 'neutral gender care pathways'
I've found plenty of women who care about finding neutral care pathways, including (but by no means exclusively) parents whose children are actively or remain at risk of becoming gender questioning. Mostly here on MN.

Agree with this. Even if your focus is primarily women and girls, paths that enable young women to explore options that might mean they avoid irreversible damage to their fertility that they could later regret can only be a good thing, surely?

If ... .... you might have found some women who cared about finding 'neutral gender care pathways'

I've found plenty of women who care about finding neutral care pathways, including (but by no means exclusively) parents whose children are actively or remain at risk of becoming gender questioning. Mostly here on MN.

Obviously you're right @colourmystic that the actions of TRAs have caused so much harm to vulnerable children and young people (boys as well as girls) but there are still many women advocating for better support for anyone who experiences dysphoria about their body.

@Seethlaw yes, Dr Az is a good example - you're right. As he's a psychiatrist, he will be able to offer fully holistic care (e.g. prescribing antidepressants to complement talking therapy if appropriate) but I can't think of any others. Even James Esses' Just Therapy organisation relies on a wider care pathway alongside the talking therapy that he and the therapists on his list offer. There's certainly nothing at all in the public sector apart from sporadic pockets of individuals and groups of people working in silos within a public healthcare system that isn't currently fit for purpose.

As far as most of us caring about finding 'neutral pathways' to 'gender care', that ship sailed years ago.
Before arrogant, delusional, abusive men began swamping women's single-sex spaces, taking awards and funding intended for women, influencing healthy teen girls towards double mastectomy, forcing the closure of women's crisis centres, skewing crime rate data, holding up placards advocating for the slaughter of 'terfs', exposing themselves, ridiculing us, getting us fired, and demanding that women accept their ludicrous beliefs, you might have found some women who cared about finding 'neutral gender care pathways'.
That ship has now sailed, and the overwhelming majority of us weren't even on the docks to wave it off.

@BonfireLady
Troubled, you're right that I did read your answer as an explanation of a gendered soul. However, I fully accept that you don't see it that way.
Of course we're unlikely to see eye to eye! I will say I do strongly reject the word 'soul' though as to me it sounds supernatural. I'm not religious; I believe my GD, just as any facet of the mind, is entirely a physical thing in the brain. Others may disagree 😀

For me, the biggest difference between your position and the "GC" position is that the latter doesn't read body dysphoria through a lens of gender identity at all i.e. as far as I can tell for "GC" people, if someone has genuine, intense feelings about their body being wrong in some way the root cause will always be related to something like cognitive processing/sensory issues (autism), response to sexual trauma, response to parental/societal expectations, internalised homophobia etc.
What you say is entirely possible; I don't actually see this as a difference of opinion necessarily. I was trying to explain (badly!) that I do think it is possibly not necessarily determined at birth. The brain continues to develop and change throughout our lives, but especially during childhood. So I fully accept GD or body dysmorphia could develop as a result of something else.

I tend to think in my case it wasn't triggered, simply because I honestly can't find a trigger, and I can trace it back to a very young age. But who knows, perhaps it's a memory I've forgotten/repressed. I'm not autistic, I've never been abused, my family was very explicitly accepting of homosexuality, my parents were always loving and supportive, they were happy to have a boy. It doesn't make any sense for me to have gender dysphoria/dysmorphia, but I do.

I view transition as one potential treatment for it. I'd say it's been effective in my case so far, but I definitely don't think it's necessarily right for everyone! Certainly as a treatment it's pretty extreme; I've upended my whole social life and rendered myself infertile in the hopes of fixing a mental health concern. Not a choice to be taken lightly!

For me, what's more important is finding a way to:
a) accommodate people whose gender (identity) differs from their sex alongside people who don't believe in the concept of gender (identity) at all - or who do believe in it but think it's less important in some situations e.g. many people who believe TWAW don't want TW in women's sports. The SC judgement confirms that the EA already achieves this.
b) provide good, neutral support in healthcare for anyone who believes that they have a gender identity that differs from their sex and who finds this distressing. I'm realistic that for some people this may involve medical transition at the end of neutral exploration, as long as they have been fully screened (and treated) for underlying root causes (including fetish), are realistic that they have not actually changed sex (in biology or in law) and are fully aware of the implications and risks re their future health. Unfortunately though, I don't believe that neutral exploration pathways currently exist.
I actually wholeheartedly agree with all of this! Hopefully when the dust settles on all this we shall be left in a position like this.

I've read his books, and yes, that's very much what he seems to offer. He's neutral in terms of desired outcomes: he's neither pro- nor anti-transition; he just wants people to find out what's best for them personally. He's also neutral in terms of referral: even back when he worked for the public service, he had no power to refer someone to a gender specialist, nor to block such a referral - and he still doesn't now as a private doctor.

I believe that Dr. Az Hakeem [MBBS MSc FRCPsych Consultany Psychiatrist & Medical Psychotherapist] might well claim to offer a "neutral exploration pathway". He seems to really get it from what I can make out.

If someone has genuine, intense feelings about their body being wrong in some way

To clarify: the examples of root causes above relate to feelings about about body parts that differ between males and females. Obviously there are plenty of other body parts where people can experience dysphoria.

I've finally now caught up on this thread and it's great to see that has stayed on track as a thoughtful place to share different viewpoints. Kudos in particular to the OP for handling the Chirping that came in around page 6-7ish by continuing to keep the focus on the various questions that have been coming through since then.

@VanishingVision @TroubledWatersTW thank you for answering my question. I'm aware it was a few pages back now but I wanted to take time to think about your (well considered) responses. To recap: I asked about the meaning of "gender identity" if it wasn't about having a "gendered soul".

Troubled, you're right that I did read your answer as an explanation of a gendered soul. However, I fully accept that you don't see it that way.

Vanishing, I felt the same reading your answer (and again, fully accept you don't see it that way) but, just as with Troubled's response, your words had me reflecting a lot on how difficult it must be to experience intense dysphoria about your body in a society that pushes us into behaving a certain way because we're male or female.

For me, the biggest difference between your position and the "GC" position is that the latter doesn't read body dysphoria through a lens of gender identity at all i.e. as far as I can tell for "GC" people, if someone has genuine, intense feelings about their body being wrong in some way the root cause will always be related to something like cognitive processing/sensory issues (autism), response to sexual trauma, response to parental/societal expectations, internalised homophobia etc.

Seethlaw said something that really resonated for me on this point, by replying to Chirpy that nobody is telling you what your gender is because they don't believe you have one. That's it for me in a nutshell.

However, I do accept that many people do believe they have a gender, irrespective of whether they think of it as a gendered soul or not.

For me, what's more important is finding a way to:

a) accommodate people whose gender (identity) differs from their sex alongside people who don't believe in the concept of gender (identity) at all - or who do believe in it but think it's less important in some situations e.g. many people who believe TWAW don't want TW in women's sports. The SC judgement confirms that the EA already achieves this.

b) provide good, neutral support in healthcare for anyone who believes that they have a gender identity that differs from their sex and who finds this distressing. I'm realistic that for some people this may involve medical transition at the end of neutral exploration, as long as they have been fully screened (and treated) for underlying root causes (including fetish), are realistic that they have not actually changed sex (in biology or in law) and are fully aware of the implications and risks re their future health. Unfortunately though, I don't believe that neutral exploration pathways currently exist.