Page 15 | TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

VanishingVision · 2025-05-16T21:55:26+00:00

Hello! I was thinking of doing this post for a little while now as the previous posts doing this by the rather wonderful trans men here were really interesting but I didnt want to take up too much space here or take any attention away from much more important things here than what I have to say. But I figured to just go for it before I have a big old break from the Internet for a while. So like the title says, I'm a transwoman who accepts the SC ruling: ask me anything if you'd like to and I'll do my best to answer.

BonfireLady · 17/05/2025 11:12

TroubledWatersTW · 17/05/2025 09:01

@BonfireLady
Also - and I find this very bizarre - there are some TW who say they don't have a gender identity, or a belief that they have a gendered soul that is female
👋yep, no belief in souls here! I've transitioned as a pragmatic treatment for gender dysphoria. I suppose one could call it a 'gender identity' but I don't tend to think about that stuff.

@tripleginandtonic
Why do you have to be a woman though? Why not just remove the sex parts you hate and be a gay male without a penis?
I'm a follower not a leader, I don't want to be the one carving out that space in society. If that was more of 'a thing' I'd happily sign up though. I just want a quiet life post transition.

In which case, I do have a question but I appreciate it's probably a bit of a derail because it's not necessarily a question for the OP (because I don't know if the OP feels this way too) and I've appreciated how respectful you have been to the OP in not taking over this thread.

I'll ask my question anyway and will put it to the OP in the first instance, given it's the OP's AMA...

"If you are a TW who doesn't believe that 'we all have a gender identity', how do you make sense of your decision to transition i.e. if you don't feel like you've got the gendered soul of a woman, why do you think it resolves feelings of discomfort about yourself to have changed your body to resemble a woman's body (within the limits of surgical/hormonal possibility)?"

OP, please ignore my question if this doesn't apply to you. Troubled, I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts if the OP is happy that it's not a derail on this thread.

To expand upon my "I find it bizarre" statement and pick up on your point about a pragmatic approach to resolving dysphoria....

I'm not sure I understand why it's pragmatic. I'm not against medical transition for people who a) are over 25 (after the shift in amygdala versus frontal lobe thinking) b) have been through a very rigorous, neutral support pathway, which rules out and seeks to address every possible reason for the dysphoria (I'm not convinced this pathway exists currently, particularly in relation to autism) and c) fully understand the significant risks and known impact of their decision about their body.

However, I've got no decent answer for the very valid counter argument that it makes as much sense to support this as it does to medically support an anorexic person to stay thin or to amputate the leg of someone who feels dysphoria relating to it.

All I've got on that is that belief is very powerful: 2 billion Christians believe that it's possible for a virgin to give birth and that conception of a child can happen without sperm. I don't. But my lack of belief has no impact on their belief that there is an exception to what we know about biology and reproduction.

I wouldn't support anorexics or amputee-wannabes being medically supported in a way that enable their belief to be enacted on their body. Nor do I support situations where parents refuse life-saving medical care for their children because of their religious beliefs. But belief remains very powerful and it's a reality that it has to be accommodated in some medical treatment decisions.

But if a TW doesn't actually believe "I'm a woman because I've got a woman's soul", why is transition a pragmatic solution to dysphoria?

(I will say at this juncture that I'm reading this thread in good faith... I'm cautiously optimistic that it won't go the same way as another one I was on a while ago now where it gradually edged its way towards increasingly less ambiguous comments before turning into a full-blown fantasy about nurses in female prisons 🤮 To cap it all off, I got told by one particularly cross poster that I was to blame for the behaviour of the TW in question because I had been interacting politely - I pointed out that I didn't own MN or the internet, but to no avail. FFS 😂)

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 11:07

anyolddinosaur · 17/05/2025 07:47

i'm sorry that your body causes you such distress. We dont generally treat body dysphoria with surgery and when there is surgery for gender dysphoria it generally has a very high complication rate. So I find it odd that we have threads in which people claim to be physically healthier. What warnings did you receive about the risks to your long term health? Did you have any interest in having children and were you offered sperm preservation?

Did you feel your family were homophobic? Was was their reaction when you told them you were attracted to men? Did you join any homosexual support groups?

You have mentioned a man wishing to assault you. Does this happen often? Has any woman ever tried to harm you?

I do understand how you correlate dysmorphia and dysphoria, but I think it's a big trade off if this is the correct thing that you feel you need to do. So, i do feel healthier in many ways genuinely because I have to be more aware of my body than I was before, before I used to reject my body but now I consider it my home and I need to look after myself mind, body and soul but I'm very accepting of the unknown longterm effects that could happen. So i went through two different private clinics for hormones, the first one didn't tell me much about the health risks but I already knew them and the 2nd clinic did very clearly despite me having been on hormones for two years.
No I never wanted to preserve that or have children. I warmed up to having kids briefly once but generally I never wanted them, it's not a desire of mine.

No my immediate family generally wasn't, my step father was homophobic and often called me gay as a child because I quite clearly in love with my male best friend. I didn't join any groups, I never felt like I needed to. My problem in myself didn't lie in my attraction to men, though I did try to hide that for some time, my problem in myself was my sex.

It's happened a few times, I was sexually assaulted by an older man I was friends with multiple times before I transitioned (it actually scared me away from transitioning too), since transitioning I have been harassed by men here and there after the first year or so also and plus the man you mentioned but I tend to keep myself to myself. I did have another experience with a man I was sleeping with that you could consider an assault quite honestly because I withdrew consent.

No, since I've transitioned a woman hasn't tried to hurt me (though a very drunk woman did aggressively hit on me at a gig once, I was clearly so uncomfortable that a man actually ushered me away). I did have an abusive relationship with a woman though, when I was trying to convince myself I was a straight man for a time and she did sexually assault me.

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 10:45

JamieCannister · 17/05/2025 07:43

Do you agree with me that all people claiming to be trans can be categorized in one of three categories - those with gender dysphoria or other mental health issues / neurodiversity; those with autognephilia or transvestic fetishism (ie sexual motives /paraphilias); and those who are not really trans and are nothing more than dishonest predators using "trans" to access vulnerable women and children?

What do you think of the idea that those who fall into the latter two categories deserve no sympathy at all from society, no accommodations at all, and that the former category would be better off with mental health support / therapy, not medical interventions with serious side effects and risks (medical and regret)?

Do you agree that all humans are constantly assessing the age and sex of everyone around them in society - it is an inherent evolutionary thing that we do in order to identify potential sexual partners in order to procreate, and as part of our constant risk assessment? If you do agree, then do you also agree that deliberately hiding one's sex is inherently anti-social, as it causes those around you to have to think more, ponder their lack of certainty, rather than just assess sex and move on in a fraction of a second?

[As an aside, I wish to make clear that there are all sorts of things in society where there is a conflict between individual freedom, and what is best for society, and it always needs to be weighed up - that certain behaviours harm wider society does not mean we should be all of them - individual liberty matters too.]

I would be very open to banning all medical, hormonal and consmetic transition, including for all adults - what can you say to convince me that the harm to deserving trans people (the mentally vulnerable IMO, not the autogynephiles) would outweigh the benefits to society?

Would you ever allow someone with BIID to have a leg amputated, and if not why should a penis or breasts be different?

I could separate it more like this: 1. Transsexuals - people who's dysphoria requires them to change sex characteristics 2. People who feel they experience dysphoria because of the social expectations of their sex 3. People with autism (this is more often the types claiming non binary i think) 4. Autogynephiles and 5. Yes the predatory and vile men.

Of course the 5th category deserve no sympathy at all or accommodation and every step should be done to keep them well away from everyone, not just women and children! AGP is actually alot more complicated than i used to think, I used to think AGP was all transvestites fetishism but it seems to be more of a sexual orientation than a fetish so I think they likely need some kind of therapy to deal with this.
The first 3 categories often get mixed together, so I think more psychiatrictic help needs to be available firstly to separate those so that they get the appropriate solutions before considering that transition could be that solution but that would only be for the first group. Group 2 and 3 needs help to understand themselves better.

I think we do but perhaps not consciously? I don't know if i consciously assess people's sex and age consistently, perhaps as risk assessment for sure but y'know im certainly aware of whos in the room with me! It depends on your definion of anti-social and the particular person, do I think it's anti-social? No, not really because I'm personally not trying to hide my sex in my view I've changed my sex characteristics and there's no ulterior motive in doing so. I'm honest about it but of course that's coming from a point of self-bias, I will admit. I can understand why somebody could think that though!

I'm not really the kind of person to try and convince anyone of anything, your opinion and view is your own much like mine is my own. All I'd say is that I don't think allowing that small number of people to transition (after sufficient help first) hurts society as a whole, I think the narrative surrounding transition should change and that trans people need to understand that the world shouldn't change everything to fit around you and that you can't have everything. This is the mindset I've had from the start and is likely why I'm quite happy.

I don't know alot about that so I can't speak on behalf of those with BIID but I think the difference in my opinion is that a person wishing for transition is to be a happier and more functional person in the longterm whereas somebody with BIID wanting to amputate a leg is wishing to be a less physically functional person (I'm sorry if this sounds ableist it wasn't intentional I just had to word it as clearly as I could). So that's where I make a distinction between the conditions and why I don't think it's a reasonable comparsion.

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 10:09

DuchessofReality · 17/05/2025 07:32

My question is what sex marker does your passport have? And are you nervous travelling internationally that this may cause you problems (eg if it says M do you dress more masculine when travelling, or if it says F do you worry that is your sec is accurately perceived this may cause border officials to think the passport may be forged?)

My passport currently says F and actually yes, this is one thing I do have a concern about. I'm not going to freak out if it has to change back to M, not everything is about me, but I would be concerned how that may affect travelling as I do travel somewhat frequently.

OP posts:

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 10:08

Hi, also a trans woman and I want to understand whether your support for the ruling comes from you being ENBY - certainly the way you describe yourself comes across this way?

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 10:07

DuchessofReality · 17/05/2025 07:29

Are the any organisations that support sex-realist transpeople? The equivalent of LGBA?

I think transpeople who asked for accommodations that minimally affect others would get a lot of support. Such as:

Requirements for employers of a certain size to have unisex toilets.
NHS records to accurately record sex and gender as potentially different.
Exemptions for trans police officers from carrying out strip searches.
Better research on the long term effects of surgery and hormones.

I'm not aware of any, I think they often get more involved with GC groups instead if they feel inclined to join such a similiar organisation. I also think it's because trans people who think more this way are more inclined to live a quiet life away from everything surrounding this, if they can.

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 10:02

GnomeDePlume · 17/05/2025 07:15

Do you think there is a trans community?

I tend to think of communities as groups of people who get together and discuss & participate in community interests.

Is that happening? Are different opinions allowed?

It does feel to me that in recent years a small, vocal, aggressive group have claimed the idea of there being a 'community' and that they speak for all.

Edited

That's a community should be, but when people refer to the 'trans community' they mean all of us as a whole. I don't think different ideas are allowed in groups, but most trans people i speak to one on one agree with me to some extent.

I absolutely agree with that, i think you have the loud nasty minority who set the tone and the rest of the community kind of gather around it because they feel they cant survive without it and then you have people like myself and the others posting here who are outliers and just live their own life outside of it, which is why we can see both sides and often feel caught in the middle but have ended up coming to agreeing with the GC side lately.

OP posts:

Seethlaw · 17/05/2025 09:58

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/05/2025 09:27

I find this interesting. For you it would be a lie to call yourself a woman. For me it would be a lie to call my son a woman. He can't accept that I can see him as I see him - I have to see him as "she" sees "herself" and use the language "she" expects. I have not been able to do that. There is a whole lot of confusion about who gets to decide whose language we use. Very little "live and let live" in practice; you seem to be an exception.

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The way I see it, I can request that people treat me as a man, but I cannot demand it. I can't demand it because it's an act of self-imposed cognitive dissonance, and as such it would be abusive of me to insist that people do it. I'm grateful if they choose to do it to please me, but if they don't, well of course it's their right!

I can only hope that with time, your son will gain in assurance in his trans identity and will not need external validation as much. That will be good for his relationship with you, but also for his own mental and emotional health and stability.

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 09:57

napody · 17/05/2025 07:12

Was there a particular event that made you aware of how bad things were?

And were you aware of the 'no debate' culture that persisted for years?

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I guess the murder of Brianna Ghey, at the time I had been trying to involve myself more in the community and I went to a vigil in my town held for her.

That event deeply upset me but I was also really bothered by the behaviour of trans people I knew and from what I saw online but this was something that was building anyway i was frequently disagreeing with other trans people. My one close TW friend for some reason spoke at the vigil and went full blown TRA after that and disappeared up her own ass and I stopped speaking to her, funnily enough she's been called out for being a narcissist lately.

So I kind of 'left' the community and didn't really pay attention to any trans related media I noticed I was much happier than other trans people i knew because I wasn't involved or chronically online, most of my friends and crowd were just regular gays, lesbians and straight people. But because I wasn't influenced by the community I was open to things like GC also. Another year on, I started to really consume GC stuff and started to really believe that alot of predatory men were taking over the 'trans community' and I met one that fit this category entirely.

Not really a particular event but more a collection of personal circumstances. I was never really aware of the 'no debate'. Truthfully I was unaware that really was much of a 'debate' over it all.

OP posts:

Alwaysoneoddsock · 17/05/2025 09:54

Thank you for posting. Thank you for supporting women’s rights e.g. the right to single sex spaces. I follow these boards because I can see women’s rights being eroded by a tiny percentage of men weaponising their trans status. However, I support TW like yourself who recognise biological reality and understand women are the biggest group who are silently and consistently marginalised in our society.

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 09:43

feministmom4ever · 17/05/2025 01:35

Do you, under any circumstances, support medical transition for children?

No, I don't. I used to be very middle ground about it, I'm not a parent or a doctor so I really couldn't decide what's best for children so I used to think leave it to parents, drs and the kids to work together to know what to do. I never could have supported medical transition for very young children but at the time perhaps a teenager with severe dysphoria it could be explored.

Now I'm against it entirely until 18. Not just because I think it's much harder to know if it's the right thing for them, the effects of taking blockers/hormones at a young age but because a child could not comprehend that this is a lifelong thing and how it can affect things like relationships etc.

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 09:32

WarriorN · 17/05/2025 07:05

Will you show the way and purposely use the men’s loos?

Do you think you’ll get push back in there?

To my mind true “trans allies,” the men, should be welcoming and supporting trans identified men into their spaces.

I know Miranda Yardley has been playing on a men’s rugby team for a while and was welcomed.

it’s just occurred to me that actually men who argue that trans identified males should not use their loos are being exclusionary and aren’t sticking up for them enough to ensure there IS no danger.

lets face it, other men can be attacked in men’s loos, as can younger vulnerable boys.

I already started in January. I've had a few rude comments from drunk guys at a gig and a few men saying 'wrong one love' but mostly I don't think men even notice.

I just had a big laugh at the thought of me trying to play men's rugby, I'd be crushed! I know you weren't suggesting I do, it was just a funny image that came into my head.

I don't know, I don't have a strong feeling towards being excluded in things anyway. I just try to navigate the world the best that I can.

OP posts:

IDontHateRainbows · 17/05/2025 09:32

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 00:36

I used to use the women's toilets (no other spaces), I was convinced by women in my life that I should use them and that it was correct for me to do so about 8 months or so after i transitioned but after I started consuming more GC material last year I more or less tried to avoid using any single sex toilets at all. In january I started using the mens again, actually.
I'd like to think I never made anyone uncomfortable, I never had a negative interaction using the women's but I accept if a woman did notice that i was trans then it is likely she may have been hesitant to say something out of women being generally more polite and out of concern for how I'd react.
I've mostly found using the mens funny (and smelly), cause I have been told a few times it's the 'wrong one love' and one time i wenr to a gig and a drunk guy made some remarks towards me another guy told him to 'fuck off'. Ironically though, a man i went on a date with last year tried to force me into the mens to have sex with him (i.e assault me) whilst I was trying to avoid using both!

I consider trans women to be trans women and not women, its different and I've always seen it as much. If I'm going to get real clinical about it, I think i simply just see myself as a transsexual.

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And how is a transsexual different to transgender?

SparklyPinkHairband · 17/05/2025 09:28

TroubledWatersTW · 17/05/2025 08:05

@SparklyPinkHairband
And what are those outstanding areas that a trans identifying man*
*That's my preferred term if that's ok, hope you don't find it insulting.
I certainly don't mind what people call me, but I just wanted to say I think 'trans-identifying male' would probably be a better phrasing since 'trans man' is (for better or worse) already a well established phrase that means something opposite to what you mean. The language around all this is confusing enough as it is!

Thanks for your input! Agree that the terms have been confusing. I see your point and find it convincing!

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/05/2025 09:27

Seethlaw · 17/05/2025 09:13

Is it okay, @VanishingVision , if I chip in once in a while?

@CraftandGlamour

" I am wondering why it wasn't enough to just accept being non-conforming to sex stereotypes."

In my case: because it would be non-conforming to the sex stereotypes of the wrong sex. Presenting as the most masculine woman to ever masculine would still be a lie.

Also: I presented as a tomboy throughout my childhood and youth, and that was a prison. That was when I was stuck in the tomboy stereotypes, when I couldn't experiment with my presentation, because I had to maintain as masculine a presentation as possible. Now that I present as a man, I am much freer to experiment, because I'm now playing with the male sex stereotypes. So for example, I can wear nail polish in almost all the colours of the rainbow, and I don't feel like I'm lying, because "men can wear nail polish too!"

I find this interesting. For you it would be a lie to call yourself a woman. For me it would be a lie to call my son a woman. He can't accept that I can see him as I see him - I have to see him as "she" sees "herself" and use the language "she" expects. I have not been able to do that. There is a whole lot of confusion about who gets to decide whose language we use. Very little "live and let live" in practice; you seem to be an exception.

INeedAPensieve · 17/05/2025 09:18

Thanks to both of you, it's an interesting thread. I also think that more people, especially women who've been abused and aggressively bullied for suggesting it, would be happy for the accomodations that @DuchessofReality suggested.

I imagine it would make @VanishingVision and @TroubledWatersTW lives a lot easier as well. It's so frustrating that an aggressive and angry bunch of activists have caused this. As well as their enablers, both men and women.

TheOtherRaven · 17/05/2025 09:18

I'd be interested to know any thoughts you may have as to why this political lobby want to destroy women's and gay right protections in law, have such contempt for women, and don't feel that women should be entitled to legal rights alongside their own.

As the SC judgment was necessary for the legal protections of women, lesbian and gay people AND women with trans identities, it seems a bit... peculiar... that the lobby wants to overturn it, and has no problem with the impact on women with trans identities. This would make it a man thing against all women of all identities and plain sexism rather than a TQ+ thing.

Seethlaw · 17/05/2025 09:13

Is it okay, @VanishingVision , if I chip in once in a while?

@CraftandGlamour

" I am wondering why it wasn't enough to just accept being non-conforming to sex stereotypes."

In my case: because it would be non-conforming to the sex stereotypes of the wrong sex. Presenting as the most masculine woman to ever masculine would still be a lie.

Also: I presented as a tomboy throughout my childhood and youth, and that was a prison. That was when I was stuck in the tomboy stereotypes, when I couldn't experiment with my presentation, because I had to maintain as masculine a presentation as possible. Now that I present as a man, I am much freer to experiment, because I'm now playing with the male sex stereotypes. So for example, I can wear nail polish in almost all the colours of the rainbow, and I don't feel like I'm lying, because "men can wear nail polish too!"

RareGoalsVerge · 17/05/2025 09:10

Thank you for coming on here for this @VanishingVision - we get so many "drive by scoldings" from TW who just come and start a thread to tell us that we are mean and nasty but don't want to actually engage in rational conversation, so it's sometimes hard to remember that such people aren't actually representative of all.

It seems to me that the rational response to the SC's clarification of the existing law would be to campaign for more unisex spaces to be provided by default alongside single sex spaces. The "default" assumption on mumsnet is that the reason that this campaign won't happen is due to TW requiring to be specifically in a designated "women's space" rather than a unisex space either for the emotional effect of the "validation" or for the sexual thrill of being in a women's space, or for the rush/thrill/power trip of knowing that their presence is unwelcome. Whereas if someone "just wants to pee"/"just wants to get changed" a private single-occupancy space is fine.

I'd be particularly interested in your opinion, OP, as to how accurate this perception would be across the diversity of TW you know - what proportion would be satisfied with unisex facilities?

TroubledWatersTW · 17/05/2025 09:01

@BonfireLady
Also - and I find this very bizarre - there are some TW who say they don't have a gender identity, or a belief that they have a gendered soul that is female
👋yep, no belief in souls here! I've transitioned as a pragmatic treatment for gender dysphoria. I suppose one could call it a 'gender identity' but I don't tend to think about that stuff.

@tripleginandtonic
Why do you have to be a woman though? Why not just remove the sex parts you hate and be a gay male without a penis?
I'm a follower not a leader, I don't want to be the one carving out that space in society. If that was more of 'a thing' I'd happily sign up though. I just want a quiet life post transition.

tripleginandtonic · 17/05/2025 08:58

Why do you have to be a woman though? Why not just remove the sex parts you hate and be a gay male without a penis?

BonfireLady · 17/05/2025 08:51

Thank you for this thread OP and to @TroubledWatersTW for the additional thoughts.

I don't have any questions to add because my primary interest in understanding gender dysphoria is where it conflates with autism - and this doesn't seem relevant to the AMA - but some great questions have been asked and I'm following with interest.

@DuchessofReality I agree with this ⬇️

I think transpeople who asked for accommodations that minimally affect others would get a lot of support. Such as:
Requirements for employers of a certain size to have unisex toilets.
NHS records to accurately record sex and gender as potentially different.
Exemptions for trans police officers from carrying out strip searches.
Better research on the long term effects of surgery and hormones.

Hopefully the SC ruling will be a catalyst for more discussions in the public discourse about all of these points.

Re the NHS recording information, from my POV it's similar to how they record any other belief. Many beliefs will impact how someone accesses healthcare, ranging from accommodating dignity (e.g. removal of headscarves or wigs for women who cover their hair for religious reasons - there would need to be no men in the room/bay) to impact on treatment choices (e.g. a Jehovah's witness would highly likely refuse a blood transfusion, even if the alternative was death).
The idea that we all have a "gendered soul" is similar in many ways to religious beliefs.
I would agree that it's helpful to have its own category though, given it links to a different protected characteristic in the EA (gender reassignment).
Also - and I find this very bizarre - there are some TW who say they don't have a gender identity, or a belief that they have a gendered soul that is female. So a separate category on the NHS systems makes sense all round, including for clinical care as it would prompt healthcare staff to ask about cross-sex hormone use and think about how this might affect test results when analysing them as part of a diagnostic process.

Edited for clarity

TransSister · 17/05/2025 08:48

JamieCannister · 17/05/2025 08:31

Scared of what? Physical safety, or being required to follow the sex based rules that everyone else also has to follow, and not being praised for his identity?

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He's scared like Chicken Licken the sky is falling in.

Sadly, we think part of his new identity is getting beaten up by men. He deliberately provoked a pub fight. We don't know the full story but there's some bizarre risky behaviour mixed in with this style of Trans. This feeds into the poor trans people narrative which is a world away from it seems the OP.

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 17/05/2025 08:38

Do you agree with me that all people claiming to be trans can be categorized in one of three categories - those with gender dysphoria or other mental health issues / neurodiversity; those with autognephilia or transvestic fetishism (ie sexual motives /paraphilias); and those who are not really trans and are nothing more than dishonest predators using "trans" to access vulnerable women and children?

this is what i think, and i have heard it a lol on mumsnet

i also think that the 2nd two categories and toxic tras have fucked it up for the first category

JamieCannister · 17/05/2025 08:31

TransSister · 17/05/2025 08:29

Do you think things will calm down?

My transwoman brother is very scared and very angry about the ruling. He's turned on family because although we have supported him - money, new name, new pronouns etc we won't say TWAW.

He is a very recent transwoman and was previously a very sexist banter type 6ft bloke living a male privileged lifestyle. Do you find that you have little in common with this section of the trans community?

Scared of what? Physical safety, or being required to follow the sex based rules that everyone else also has to follow, and not being praised for his identity?