Page 14 | TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

VanishingVision · 2025-05-16T21:55:26+00:00

Hello! I was thinking of doing this post for a little while now as the previous posts doing this by the rather wonderful trans men here were really interesting but I didnt want to take up too much space here or take any attention away from much more important things here than what I have to say. But I figured to just go for it before I have a big old break from the Internet for a while. So like the title says, I'm a transwoman who accepts the SC ruling: ask me anything if you'd like to and I'll do my best to answer.

TransSister · 17/05/2025 15:48

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 13:22

Can I ask something that may come across as insensitive? I am asking to try and understand how the dynamics of your family differs from my own and to see whether your sister has a different experience and why.

To offer some context, I am sure that my family would still say that they "love" me. Like yours, they have never supported my transition actively, refusing to accept my new name/pronouns/presentation despite the fact that it is really clear that transitioning made me demonstrably happier, healthier, and more comfortable in my own body than any other process or treatment I tried.

So I want to ask in what way you believe you treat your sister with love and whether she would agree with you that she is loved unconditionally by her family?

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My sibling was born and lived as a biological man for nearly 50 years. If we are talking together or he is present we all use his preferred new name and pronouns. It makes him happy, it's what he wants and it's important to him. And I would do that for another individual to.
If he'd changed religion, political affiliation or taken up a new hobby we'd also listen politely, show an interest, ask a few questions. But I don't think he'd expect us to affirm his new thing to the same degree as trans. I wouldn't expected to believe in a new god or take up cycling. I won't do the whole TWAW. I also think that it undermines the experience of trans people, I'm a hetro woman I've lived that life. Not the life of my gay friends in homophobic '70s family homes or teenagers in lockdown. I'm interested, thanks for the ama, but I can't join you.
If a friend behaved as my sibling has over the years, we'd have lost contact a long time ago. My sibling crops up every now and then, on their terms and is welcomed, positive memories shared, no obligations insisted on and then they disappear again. He calls in times of stress never to celebrate. He's often mean about things we achieve or value. Seems pretty unconditional compared to most of my friendships.

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 15:22

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 14:16

Well, I've been on hormones for years and have had some surgeries, I'm not gonna say which ones other than FFS because that's my business. Plus you know name change etc etc all the things. Unless you are aware of another way to transition?
I guess you could consider how I see it to be 'transmedicalist' but personally I don't consider having had GRS a requirement to be a transsexual as there could be medical reasons why somebody can't go under it, or simply just not wanting to put themselves through a potentially traumatic surgery. I consider the requirement simply as 'dysphoria that requires medical transition' as i don't see any other logical reason to do so.

I know what the ruling is about, but I'm stating why I accept it. Just in case you think I've gone full blown 'TERF' I absolutely understand trans people being worried and scared about it. I might accept it but it doesn't mean I also don't have some worries and doesn't mean I don't want to have empathy for everyone who could be affected by it.

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Right, then I guess what I am trying to understand is what in your mind does "dysphoria that doesn't require medical transition" look like? Take my friend, for example. She is transgender, is happy having socially transitioned and taking hormones but does not want to undergo GRS because she doesn't experience bottom dysphoria but does experience dysphoria because of other parts of her body feeling wrong. Is her dysphoria enough to consider her trans? What about an ex of mine who is non-binary and experiences dysphoria because their body is gendered, so does not want to take feminising hormones or undergo a surgery because that would just alter their body into a different gendered one? Their dysphoria presumably doesn't require medical transition to address but it would be baffling to me to say they aren't trans.

Ok so are you saying that you disagree with the decision reached but accept that it's the way a court decided on it, or are you going further and saying that you agree with the reasons they made the decision? If it's the latter, why? Regarding whether I believe you've gone full TERF or not, I don't think that's related to your opinion on the SC ruling. I think that the reason you might be struggling to have trans friends or get pushed out of trans spaces has less to do with your opinions on the SC and more because, as this thread has shown, you are willing to misgender other trans women. Other trans people may feel like I do, that you can't really be trusted to clear the minimum bar of recognising other people's gender expression as valid and treat it with respect and that's the reason you aren't made to feel welcome in that space.

GnomeDePlume · 17/05/2025 15:02

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 10:02

That's a community should be, but when people refer to the 'trans community' they mean all of us as a whole. I don't think different ideas are allowed in groups, but most trans people i speak to one on one agree with me to some extent.

I absolutely agree with that, i think you have the loud nasty minority who set the tone and the rest of the community kind of gather around it because they feel they cant survive without it and then you have people like myself and the others posting here who are outliers and just live their own life outside of it, which is why we can see both sides and often feel caught in the middle but have ended up coming to agreeing with the GC side lately.

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Thank you for answering. I'll be honest that claims of any sort of community leader make me nervous! Instantly my mind thinks 'was there a meeting, a vote?'

Possibly comes from belonging to too many clubs and societies over the years.

I am glad you aren't claiming to speak for any one except yourself.

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 14:30

TransSister · 17/05/2025 13:11

Thank you, and the other Transwoman so far on this thread for your time and thoughts.

We still think of my trans sibling with love. We don't need to understand the motivation or detail behind their internal life. It's not a journey that we can be alongside. He does spend a lot of time on line and will have made this a deep dive special interest, although clearly not from how myself or my daughters might feel.

We're aware it's early days but good to hear it's almost a necessary part of the evolving to a more stable contentment.

My mum, privately, is exasperated, worried, angry, and occasionally probably does laugh ironically but she says she is amazed at how strong the bond of love is despite a lot of challenges over many decades of previous challenges.

I hope you feel loved unconditionally by family.

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I think moving on from that part is hard if you're online alot and involved in trans spaces, it's why alot of trans people are still like it after years, honestly had I been completely swallowed up by it I might be the same. Trans people seem to forget that not every single part of your life revolves about being trans.

I can understand, I think as we can forget it's acruslly hard on family too. It doesn't mean transitioning is bad or selfish but y'know if your mother gave birth to you and saw you as a son then that relationship is based on that. I've got lucky that my relationship with my mother especially is better, I had my little sensitive period but I got over it, we actually discovered how similiar we are as people (both very neurotic 🤣). But my relationship with her began by being mother and only son, I accepted that she would struggle with my choicee even if she does say she likes me much better now!

I really hope things get better for you all in this truly 🖤

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 14:16

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 13:13

Right but then in what sense did you transition? This seems like a weirdly semantic difference and also suggests a high degree of transmed logic - for example, how are you a transsexual if you have not had GRS? Were you not one until you had it?

Well, no - the ruling is very clearly about whether a GRC means that you are legally recognised as the gender you identify as. It's not at all clear to me how the fact that people are upset about a ruling that says "it is not" rationalises that ruling.

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Well, I've been on hormones for years and have had some surgeries, I'm not gonna say which ones other than FFS because that's my business. Plus you know name change etc etc all the things. Unless you are aware of another way to transition?
I guess you could consider how I see it to be 'transmedicalist' but personally I don't consider having had GRS a requirement to be a transsexual as there could be medical reasons why somebody can't go under it, or simply just not wanting to put themselves through a potentially traumatic surgery. I consider the requirement simply as 'dysphoria that requires medical transition' as i don't see any other logical reason to do so.

I know what the ruling is about, but I'm stating why I accept it. Just in case you think I've gone full blown 'TERF' I absolutely understand trans people being worried and scared about it. I might accept it but it doesn't mean I also don't have some worries and doesn't mean I don't want to have empathy for everyone who could be affected by it.

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MelodyMalone · 17/05/2025 13:28

forgotmyusername1 · 17/05/2025 11:18

My biggest issue is not genuine trans women (usually gay effeminate men) who just want to blend in and live authentically

The problem is that it progressed to self id and that womanhood was a feeling with no debate which TRA's campaigned meant no one could say no to autogenophiles deciding they were suddenly lesbians and entitled to get their cocks out in the women's changing room and predatory men putting on a dress and putting mobile phones under cubicle doors in women's toilets.

Self id and TRA's and horrible men have made genuine trans womens live immeasurably harder - blame them for the situation now not women who have just said 'no more'

I think though that for a large section of the well-meaning public, when they hear "transwomen", that first line above is what they assume the vast majority of transwomen to be - harmless, just wanting to get on with their lives in peace, why wouldn't you give them your support - whereas as we know, that is not the case with many of the more aggressive types of TW.

Thank you @VanishingVision for this thread, and the other trans people who have commented. It's really appreciated and valuable to hear voices that aren't the aggressive shouting-down we so often experience, and understand your perspectives.

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 13:22

TransSister · 17/05/2025 13:11

Thank you, and the other Transwoman so far on this thread for your time and thoughts.

We still think of my trans sibling with love. We don't need to understand the motivation or detail behind their internal life. It's not a journey that we can be alongside. He does spend a lot of time on line and will have made this a deep dive special interest, although clearly not from how myself or my daughters might feel.

We're aware it's early days but good to hear it's almost a necessary part of the evolving to a more stable contentment.

My mum, privately, is exasperated, worried, angry, and occasionally probably does laugh ironically but she says she is amazed at how strong the bond of love is despite a lot of challenges over many decades of previous challenges.

I hope you feel loved unconditionally by family.

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Can I ask something that may come across as insensitive? I am asking to try and understand how the dynamics of your family differs from my own and to see whether your sister has a different experience and why.

To offer some context, I am sure that my family would still say that they "love" me. Like yours, they have never supported my transition actively, refusing to accept my new name/pronouns/presentation despite the fact that it is really clear that transitioning made me demonstrably happier, healthier, and more comfortable in my own body than any other process or treatment I tried.

So I want to ask in what way you believe you treat your sister with love and whether she would agree with you that she is loved unconditionally by her family?

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 13:18

DrBlackbird · 17/05/2025 13:06

One question, which might be too personal, but what age group do you fall into?

I’m an older feminist who grew up with the term transsexual. That term was accepted as describing the material reality ie some men wanted a female (presenting) body but knew they were male. They either cross dressed or had surgery. Some body dysphoric and some AGP. Many or most were gay men.

That understanding (and some acceptance of that position reaching back centuries) has been utterly upended in the last two decades and I see, like you, that the demand for making everyone accept gender over sex has… hurt trans people along the way and I would add, harmed the LGB community as well as those identifying as trans.

This second question might beyond your scope as it’s less personal and more observational, but do you have any thoughts on why the trans or gendered phenomenon has swept through young people? I see so many young people (pretty much all ASD) coming to believe they’re trans or NB or one of the many genders. It’s this aspect that worries me the most.

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That's okay, without being too personal or exact I'm in my mid 30s!

Ive always had that mentality about it honestly as far as what transsexual is. And I agree, the upending it's hurt everyone in my opinion. Women, children, trans and LGB people.

Honestly i think it's very much because the way 'trans' is viewed as now, this kind of fluid thing that's all about presentation, identity and pronouns (that can lead to medicalisation) that you can invent or define however you wish... I mean, I see how that can appeal to young children, especially those with ASD struggling to understand themselves.

Think of the way it's all presented, bright and magickal and affirming that part of it is very much like a subculture. I can see why that'd be alluring to people figuring themselves out and in reality, if it wasn't about 'gender' it'd be totally fine. People can and should explore their identity if they wish, wear whatever they want and call themselves whatever. I think it's the fact that can lead to medicalisation and it's essentially trying to change how everyone sees sex/gender and the consequences we're seeing is now where i find an issue.

OP posts:

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 13:13

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 13:04

No, I consider being a trans woman more like a medical fact not an identity. I'm a biological male who wished to transition to female, but I'm not the same as a woman. It makes me a trans woman.

I mean, you only need to spend 5 mins in the media, looking back at the actions of TRAs towards women and also the way trans people have been both demonised and weaponised for political gain to see what I mean by that.

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Right but then in what sense did you transition? This seems like a weirdly semantic difference and also suggests a high degree of transmed logic - for example, how are you a transsexual if you have not had GRS? Were you not one until you had it?

Well, no - the ruling is very clearly about whether a GRC means that you are legally recognised as the gender you identify as. It's not at all clear to me how the fact that people are upset about a ruling that says "it is not" rationalises that ruling.

TransSister · 17/05/2025 13:11

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 12:13

Oh God I don't know! I really don't think it will sadly.

Just a question, do they typically spend alot of time in the trans community and stuff?

I'm so sorry to hear that though that he's turned on you especially as youve helped them out so much. I couldn't imagine cutting my sister and mother out ever.

Hmm, no I don't really. I of course, at one point, had male privilege (not that I was aware of it). I do think most trans people go through a sensitive period early on,I did but I didnt shout at people or anything like that I just internalised it. I had a short period of time where I tried to pretend to be a very masculine straight man (which i later found out my mother was laughing at me about) so that's the only way I could relate to that at all.

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Thank you, and the other Transwoman so far on this thread for your time and thoughts.

We still think of my trans sibling with love. We don't need to understand the motivation or detail behind their internal life. It's not a journey that we can be alongside. He does spend a lot of time on line and will have made this a deep dive special interest, although clearly not from how myself or my daughters might feel.

We're aware it's early days but good to hear it's almost a necessary part of the evolving to a more stable contentment.

My mum, privately, is exasperated, worried, angry, and occasionally probably does laugh ironically but she says she is amazed at how strong the bond of love is despite a lot of challenges over many decades of previous challenges.

I hope you feel loved unconditionally by family.

DrBlackbird · 17/05/2025 13:06

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 12:22

Transgender is considered to be the 'umbrella' which is a relatively new thing, which all the trans 'identitities' exist and TS is under it though generally the trans community hate that term and anyone who uses it.

I don't really relate to anything outside of being a transsexual as far as being trans goes so I don't like the term transgender and it seems to mean everything all at once and also doesn't mean anything at all. I think transsexual is very direct.

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One question, which might be too personal, but what age group do you fall into?

I’m an older feminist who grew up with the term transsexual. That term was accepted as describing the material reality ie some men wanted a female (presenting) body but knew they were male. They either cross dressed or had surgery. Some body dysphoric and some AGP. Many or most were gay men.

That understanding (and some acceptance of that position reaching back centuries) has been utterly upended in the last two decades and I see, like you, that the demand for making everyone accept gender over sex has… hurt trans people along the way and I would add, harmed the LGB community as well as those identifying as trans.

This second question might beyond your scope as it’s less personal and more observational, but do you have any thoughts on why the trans or gendered phenomenon has swept through young people? I see so many young people (pretty much all ASD) coming to believe they’re trans or NB or one of the many genders. It’s this aspect that worries me the most.

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 13:04

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 12:56

So would you then say that your gender identity is transgender woman?

I am also unclear on what you mean by your support being based on the "debate".

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No, I consider being a trans woman more like a medical fact not an identity. I'm a biological male who wished to transition to female, but I'm not the same as a woman. It makes me a trans woman.

I mean, you only need to spend 5 mins in the media, looking back at the actions of TRAs towards women and also the way trans people have been both demonised and weaponised for political gain to see what I mean by that.

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 13:01

TonTonMacoute · 17/05/2025 12:21

Hello @VanishingVision

Your posts (and the contributions from other TW) have been very interesting and illuminating. It has explained a lot to me that I had not really understood before. Three pages of courteous discussion is quite a feat too!

Do you feel that your transition has resolved the discomfort you felt from your body dysmorphia? And if so was it a full resolution or did it reveal that there were other underlying causes that remained?

There have been a handful of cases where people have transitioned back then transitioned again, which would indicate a certain amount of unresolved issues.

I think interest in transsexual people rose in the 1960s and 70s. There were several well-known people who made an appearance at that time, and although there was the inevitable sensationalist coverage, I think most people felt that this was clearly a serious issue for the people involved.

I remember watching the documentary about Julia Grant, who underwent transition in real time back in the 1970s. I watched it with my mum and we both felt a lot of sympathy and good will towards her. It has to be said that her later life was a bit rackety, so I'm not sure transitioning solved all her problems, but it's likely it did improve things for her in the main.

Hello!

So yeah, it's interesting because I do feel like transition itself not only helped to alleviate dysphoria itself but it provided a bedrock for me to also tackle other problems in my life that I never could before and it's also changed the way I go about my problems, I'm not avoidant I deal with them and if it's something I can't control i don't waste my energy on it. I definitely discovered much more about my self I didn't know too, so I wouldn't say I discovered other underlying things causing the dysphoria but that was certainly a roadblock in dealing with anything else.

I had a lot of unresolved trauma and it wasn't until after transition I was able to unpack it and deal with it. I also had off and on again problems with alcohol and substance abuse and I only accepted my addiction after transition and am now totally clean and sober for two years at this point which I never thought would happen 😊 The other areas of my life improved too, like my relationship with my mother who is my bestie, work, being able to just enjoy little things too. Dating is another story however but I'm not too bothered about that 🤣

I acryslly hate the weaponisation of Suicide ideation by TRAs but I genuinely don't think I would be alive now if I hadn't finally made the step to transition. It's not perfect, because life isn't anyway. It's 'rackety' as you say about Julia Grant (I hadn't heard of her before so ill look her up thankyou! I love reading about TS from back in that time period) and I guess there is always a little voice there which is my 'dysphoria' but I don't tend to listen to it unless I'm just having a bad day, what I have now is much better than I had before. Transition isn't perfect and you have to be realistic that there will be difficulties alongside the positives.

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ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 12:56

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 12:42

I wouldn't consider myself to be an 'Enby' or non-binary as that seems to be more about the social expectations of sex and gender. I still see myself in a binary way as sex goes: male to female transsexual. I don't see myself a man, I see myself as a trans woman and it's down to others to decide how they view me.

My support for the ruling is primarily a result of how I feel about trans activists and the 'debate'.

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So would you then say that your gender identity is transgender woman?

I am also unclear on what you mean by your support being based on the "debate".

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 12:42

ChirpyFinch · 17/05/2025 10:08

Hi, also a trans woman and I want to understand whether your support for the ruling comes from you being ENBY - certainly the way you describe yourself comes across this way?

I wouldn't consider myself to be an 'Enby' or non-binary as that seems to be more about the social expectations of sex and gender. I still see myself in a binary way as sex goes: male to female transsexual. I don't see myself a man, I see myself as a trans woman and it's down to others to decide how they view me.

My support for the ruling is primarily a result of how I feel about trans activists and the 'debate'.

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 12:38

RareGoalsVerge · 17/05/2025 09:10

Thank you for coming on here for this @VanishingVision - we get so many "drive by scoldings" from TW who just come and start a thread to tell us that we are mean and nasty but don't want to actually engage in rational conversation, so it's sometimes hard to remember that such people aren't actually representative of all.

It seems to me that the rational response to the SC's clarification of the existing law would be to campaign for more unisex spaces to be provided by default alongside single sex spaces. The "default" assumption on mumsnet is that the reason that this campaign won't happen is due to TW requiring to be specifically in a designated "women's space" rather than a unisex space either for the emotional effect of the "validation" or for the sexual thrill of being in a women's space, or for the rush/thrill/power trip of knowing that their presence is unwelcome. Whereas if someone "just wants to pee"/"just wants to get changed" a private single-occupancy space is fine.

I'd be particularly interested in your opinion, OP, as to how accurate this perception would be across the diversity of TW you know - what proportion would be satisfied with unisex facilities?

What would I have to scold you on? You are simply doing what you believe to be right and I support you in that. I don't have to agree with you on every point much like you absolutely won't always agree with myself and that's how we get to a good place in life by existing and treating each othe like human beings!

I don't think it's a popular idea for a number of reasons.

The reality is it likely won't happen on a wide scale, which is why my attitude is that I just deal with doing my wees in the men's even if it looks and feels weird at this point but ultimately I don't really have a problem with it (and I agree that TW shouldn't be using the female spaces anymore, the 'social contract' decided by male doctors clearly was used to overreach).

Most TW won't accept that they aren't actually women, whether it's because they genuinely believe they are the same as a 'cis' woman (their language not mine) or because they can't accept society not treating them as such. So that's either a genuine case of feeling like they are being segregated unfairly or they need the validation. TM are normally less bothered which space they use, they don't wanna make women uncomfortable if they pass but I know TM who use the women's anyway because they don't pass.

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 12:22

IDontHateRainbows · 17/05/2025 09:32

And how is a transsexual different to transgender?

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Transgender is considered to be the 'umbrella' which is a relatively new thing, which all the trans 'identitities' exist and TS is under it though generally the trans community hate that term and anyone who uses it.

I don't really relate to anything outside of being a transsexual as far as being trans goes so I don't like the term transgender and it seems to mean everything all at once and also doesn't mean anything at all. I think transsexual is very direct.

OP posts:

TonTonMacoute · 17/05/2025 12:21

Hello @VanishingVision

Your posts (and the contributions from other TW) have been very interesting and illuminating. It has explained a lot to me that I had not really understood before. Three pages of courteous discussion is quite a feat too!

Do you feel that your transition has resolved the discomfort you felt from your body dysmorphia? And if so was it a full resolution or did it reveal that there were other underlying causes that remained?

There have been a handful of cases where people have transitioned back then transitioned again, which would indicate a certain amount of unresolved issues.

I think interest in transsexual people rose in the 1960s and 70s. There were several well-known people who made an appearance at that time, and although there was the inevitable sensationalist coverage, I think most people felt that this was clearly a serious issue for the people involved.

I remember watching the documentary about Julia Grant, who underwent transition in real time back in the 1970s. I watched it with my mum and we both felt a lot of sympathy and good will towards her. It has to be said that her later life was a bit rackety, so I'm not sure transitioning solved all her problems, but it's likely it did improve things for her in the main.

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 12:16

Seethlaw · 17/05/2025 09:13

Is it okay, @VanishingVision , if I chip in once in a while?

@CraftandGlamour

" I am wondering why it wasn't enough to just accept being non-conforming to sex stereotypes."

In my case: because it would be non-conforming to the sex stereotypes of the wrong sex. Presenting as the most masculine woman to ever masculine would still be a lie.

Also: I presented as a tomboy throughout my childhood and youth, and that was a prison. That was when I was stuck in the tomboy stereotypes, when I couldn't experiment with my presentation, because I had to maintain as masculine a presentation as possible. Now that I present as a man, I am much freer to experiment, because I'm now playing with the male sex stereotypes. So for example, I can wear nail polish in almost all the colours of the rainbow, and I don't feel like I'm lying, because "men can wear nail polish too!"

How DARE you do the trans thing and come onto MY thread and make this all about yourself... haven't you had enough fame and glory on your own??

Of course I'm joking please do chip in wherever you want! 😊

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Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 12:13

TransSister · 17/05/2025 08:29

Do you think things will calm down?

My transwoman brother is very scared and very angry about the ruling. He's turned on family because although we have supported him - money, new name, new pronouns etc we won't say TWAW.

He is a very recent transwoman and was previously a very sexist banter type 6ft bloke living a male privileged lifestyle. Do you find that you have little in common with this section of the trans community?

Oh God I don't know! I really don't think it will sadly.

Just a question, do they typically spend alot of time in the trans community and stuff?

I'm so sorry to hear that though that he's turned on you especially as youve helped them out so much. I couldn't imagine cutting my sister and mother out ever.

Hmm, no I don't really. I of course, at one point, had male privilege (not that I was aware of it). I do think most trans people go through a sensitive period early on,I did but I didnt shout at people or anything like that I just internalised it. I had a short period of time where I tried to pretend to be a very masculine straight man (which i later found out my mother was laughing at me about) so that's the only way I could relate to that at all.

OP posts:

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 11:38

BonfireLady · 17/05/2025 11:12

In which case, I do have a question but I appreciate it's probably a bit of a derail because it's not necessarily a question for the OP (because I don't know if the OP feels this way too) and I've appreciated how respectful you have been to the OP in not taking over this thread.

I'll ask my question anyway and will put it to the OP in the first instance, given it's the OP's AMA...

"If you are a TW who doesn't believe that 'we all have a gender identity', how do you make sense of your decision to transition i.e. if you don't feel like you've got the gendered soul of a woman, why do you think it resolves feelings of discomfort about yourself to have changed your body to resemble a woman's body (within the limits of surgical/hormonal possibility)?"

OP, please ignore my question if this doesn't apply to you. Troubled, I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts if the OP is happy that it's not a derail on this thread.

To expand upon my "I find it bizarre" statement and pick up on your point about a pragmatic approach to resolving dysphoria....

I'm not sure I understand why it's pragmatic. I'm not against medical transition for people who a) are over 25 (after the shift in amygdala versus frontal lobe thinking) b) have been through a very rigorous, neutral support pathway, which rules out and seeks to address every possible reason for the dysphoria (I'm not convinced this pathway exists currently, particularly in relation to autism) and c) fully understand the significant risks and known impact of their decision about their body.

However, I've got no decent answer for the very valid counter argument that it makes as much sense to support this as it does to medically support an anorexic person to stay thin or to amputate the leg of someone who feels dysphoria relating to it.

All I've got on that is that belief is very powerful: 2 billion Christians believe that it's possible for a virgin to give birth and that conception of a child can happen without sperm. I don't. But my lack of belief has no impact on their belief that there is an exception to what we know about biology and reproduction.

I wouldn't support anorexics or amputee-wannabes being medically supported in a way that enable their belief to be enacted on their body. Nor do I support situations where parents refuse life-saving medical care for their children because of their religious beliefs. But belief remains very powerful and it's a reality that it has to be accommodated in some medical treatment decisions.

But if a TW doesn't actually believe "I'm a woman because I've got a woman's soul", why is transition a pragmatic solution to dysphoria?

(I will say at this juncture that I'm reading this thread in good faith... I'm cautiously optimistic that it won't go the same way as another one I was on a while ago now where it gradually edged its way towards increasingly less ambiguous comments before turning into a full-blown fantasy about nurses in female prisons 🤮 To cap it all off, I got told by one particularly cross poster that I was to blame for the behaviour of the TW in question because I had been interacting politely - I pointed out that I didn't own MN or the internet, but to no avail. FFS 😂)

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Okay! Here's my take on gender identity then for you!

Gender identity makes NO sense really, unless you are talking about a trans person. I think gender identity is a thing but I see it as a tool to decide what to do with your dysphoria as opposed to like a gendered soul.

If you experience dysphoria and it's figured out it's because of your sex characteristics and NOT because of social expectations of your sex and you wish to transition then I think the concept of 'gender identity' is really a tool to say 'hey I'm a male/female and I wish to transition to female/male'. Does that make sense?

I think the reason I think this is because I don't 'identify as a woman' or 'feel like a woman', i couldn't know what it's like to be a woman y'know I was born a boy right? I have dysphoria towards my male characteristics and for some reason I genuinely can't explain it just seems 'correct' for my body to be female instead, though I can't ever actually be an actual adult female person/a woman so I accept that I am a male to female transsexual, a trans woman. I hope that makes sense! Maybe that does still kind of sound like 'gender identity'? But I don't think it makes me a woman.

It's funny because I'm very interested in esoteric stuff, spirituality, the occult, religions etc etc and don't have trouble in getting my head around abstract concepts but when it comes to trans related stuff I try to be DEATHLY clinical 🤣 as opposed to the magickal language trans people usually like to use.

Whatever happened on that last thread you mentioned sounds awful 😢

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napody · 17/05/2025 11:30

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 09:57

I guess the murder of Brianna Ghey, at the time I had been trying to involve myself more in the community and I went to a vigil in my town held for her.

That event deeply upset me but I was also really bothered by the behaviour of trans people I knew and from what I saw online but this was something that was building anyway i was frequently disagreeing with other trans people. My one close TW friend for some reason spoke at the vigil and went full blown TRA after that and disappeared up her own ass and I stopped speaking to her, funnily enough she's been called out for being a narcissist lately.

So I kind of 'left' the community and didn't really pay attention to any trans related media I noticed I was much happier than other trans people i knew because I wasn't involved or chronically online, most of my friends and crowd were just regular gays, lesbians and straight people. But because I wasn't influenced by the community I was open to things like GC also. Another year on, I started to really consume GC stuff and started to really believe that alot of predatory men were taking over the 'trans community' and I met one that fit this category entirely.

Not really a particular event but more a collection of personal circumstances. I was never really aware of the 'no debate'. Truthfully I was unaware that really was much of a 'debate' over it all.

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Thank you for sharing that- really interesting.

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 11:19

forgotmyusername1 · 17/05/2025 08:01

I have seen a few Alexis Blake videos and I think she is a very reasonable trans woman (yes I have deliberately called her she)

She feels that autogynephiles, tra's and self id have caused all this hate towards their community at the expense of genuine trans people. She disagrees with trans women in female sports. She calls herself a trans woman not a genuine woman. Her partner refers to himself as a gay man.

If you want views from a middle of the road trans woman this is probably a good person to look at.

I've watched some of her stuff and I
very much agree with her on that!

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forgotmyusername1 · 17/05/2025 11:18

My biggest issue is not genuine trans women (usually gay effeminate men) who just want to blend in and live authentically

The problem is that it progressed to self id and that womanhood was a feeling with no debate which TRA's campaigned meant no one could say no to autogenophiles deciding they were suddenly lesbians and entitled to get their cocks out in the women's changing room and predatory men putting on a dress and putting mobile phones under cubicle doors in women's toilets.

Self id and TRA's and horrible men have made genuine trans womens live immeasurably harder - blame them for the situation now not women who have just said 'no more'

Original poster

VanishingVision · 17/05/2025 11:18

SparklyPinkHairband · 17/05/2025 07:55

Thank you so much for explaining this. I note that you do not say you "changed sex" - you wanted to disassociate yourself from the (I presume visible) sex characteristics of your sex.

I applaud that you've been using the men's since Jan this year and I applaud the guy who correctly intervened when you got stupid comments from a drunk guy.

Thanks for coming here.

My question is whether you think the GRA should be repealed due to its falsification of the birth certificate, and replaced with other legislation that addresses any outstanding points now that same sex marriage is legalised? And what are those outstanding areas that a trans identifying man* like you wants to argue for, now that you can marry another man? Thanks.

*That's my preferred term if that's ok, hope you don't find it insulting.

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Honestly I'm not that bothered how people refer to me, I'm quite secure in myself so it doesn't really bother me. It does feel weird to me being called a man, there is just something that doesn't compute in my brain haha. But it doesn't bother me nor do I find it insulting.

Honestly I'm not sure what I think about the GRA, whether there is any point to keeping it or repealing it. I don't have a GRC because I never saw the point in it though my DRs really want me to get one, I don't want to get married and I don't care if people call me a man when I'm dead I'm too busy living my little life to worry about that! Plus I've never had any desire to do any job specifically for women so the 'legality' of being recognised as a woman in the law has never concerned me though my passport does say 'F' on it but I guess I saw that as more of a practically? If strangers generally assume me to be a woman or at least a trans woman (I'm not actually certain of how I may 'pass').

I don't have a real definite answer for you, sorry. I think i need to give this one some more thought.

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