TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

I think there are different kinds of gender dysphoria, the kind a trans person has that requires transition is one, plus SA/rape survivors can also experience a form of GD and I think there's a kind of dysphoria that comes from not feeling like you fit into the social expectations of your sex/gender. Those last two would clearly not require medical transition would they? That would likely be therapy and teaching people to accept they don't have to conform to stereotypes.
Also you just said your friend has dysphoria and is taking hormones to change her sex characteristics. That is a form of medically transitioning is it not? If she's happy I wish her all the peace in the world, good for her. I wouldn't tell somebody they are/aren't trans because they didn't want a surgery, no surgery should be undertaken lightly and I would never tell somebody to go through one just because somebody else thinks you should, it should only be done for your own personal reasons. Do I think its a bit weird to not at least WANT GRS if you wish to be the opposite sex, but my experience is not everyone's and I would never claim to speak for everyone. Not everyone has the resources and availability for the same things. I have a close friend who is a trans man who hasnt started hormones yet, is likely some time away from it and I have literally zero problem with using their pronouns, etc. Everything is a personal choice in your own life.
As for your NB they're transgender by the mainstream definition of it but they aren't a transsexual, I wouldn't misgender them and I accept their experience but I wouldn't be able to relate to it much like every NB person I've met, their struggle is entirely different to TS people.

And there's a reason I make the distinction: your NB friend can go back at any time to their former life, change their clothes, grow their hair back (or cut it) etc etc. I can't go back EVER. Your TW friend can't. The part of the trans community affected by everything that's going on in the trans rights debacle the most is binary trans women and men. Is your NB friend affected if they ban medical transition (something a few people here are in favour of, obviously I am not)? No, but we are. Are they affected by what spaces trans people now have to use? I suspect they use the ones for their bio sex. Are they affected by documents being forcibly changed back potentially? I suspect not.
That's why I think the distinction is important, surely if you want to fight for trans rights you should be able to clearly define what it is. Most trans people can't actually explain themselves because they're armed with the magickal and vague language with by TRAs and the mainstream community.
I'm not some totalitarian keeper of the keys to the transsexual empire, I dont spend my time thinking about who and who isn't trans and telling people what to do online it's their business not mine. But i am allowed an opinion on the things that are beginning to directly affect me now.

I'm sorry but where have I misgendered somebody? I don't walk into trans spaces misgendering people, I'd be a hypocrite if I did that. I have a different viewpoint on trans issues, that's why I struggle with them but I do have some trans friends who don't see totally eye to eye with me but we agree and relate on some level.

As per the SC ruling I accept the reasons they came to it and everything thats lead to it, I think it's necessary to try and reset the clock and bring balance back again but that is probably me being naive. I don't know how I feel about how its going to play out in full at this point, honesrly it's still very fresh isn't it? There's still a thousand interpretations of everything out there.

I assuming that what you're actually asking me is whether I think a trans woman should be sent to a female prison. Yes, I think that she should be. I also think that it's probably sensible to treat a rapist as a rapist while they are in prison and take precautions to prevent further crimes and abuse.

I think you can, and should, treat her like any other rapist or abuser in prison - whether that is isolation, or putting them in a higher security facility. I'd say the same about a cis woman who had committed similar crimes, or do you think that she shouldn't be in a women's prison?

I assuming that what you're actually asking me is whether I think a trans woman should be sent to a female prison. Yes, I think that she should be. I also think that it's probably sensible to treat a rapist as a rapist while they are in prison and take precautions to prevent further crimes and abuse.

I think you can, and should, treat her like any other rapist or abuser in prison - whether that is isolation, or putting them in a higher security facility. I'd say the same about a cis woman who had committed similar crimes, or do you think that she shouldn't be in a women's prison?

How so? You asked me whether I think a male (so presumably someone who identifies as a man) should be put in a women's prison. No, obviously.

Then you realise that you too are transphobic, right?

But @TransSister and the rest of the family matter, too. It's not all about the feelings of the trans sibling.

No, because they're a male. I think that would go without saying.

🙄the trans women are having a conversation honey, maybe don't decide for us whether there is hostility. I'm making a point that @VanishingVision's experience with the trans community is likely very different because of the way she engages about other people. I think it's notable that she doesn't want to be considered a TERF, because otherwise why openly tell me that they haven't gone full TERF?

I'm not talking about which pronouns to use; that's almost anecdotic at this point. I'm talking about which prison to send them to. Should a male abuser be sent to a women's prison, full of female inmates and staffed by female people?

I dunno which approach I'd like less. Like on the one hand it'd be nice to have some acknowledgment and validation from my family, on the other I'd probably be much more hurt if I knew that it was totally insincere because of how I'm talked about behind my back. I wonder if she'd prefer the situation I find myself in. The behaviour you're describing from your sister is really similar to a lot of trans friends I had that ended up not interacting with their family anymore because they eventually decided their energy was better spent on people that actually love and care for them. I hope for the sake of your relationship with your sister that that doesn't happen to you but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

@ChirpyFinch well there you have it thinly disguised hostility because OP does not drum out the same twaddle, as you obviously believe.

OP cannot be a “TERF”, simply because in order to qualify for that insult one MUST be a biological woman.

The “TERF” club here, has a variety of views on the whole issue but don't cast people out or abuse them because there opinions vary.

I think it's pretty simple - I don't think that the crime of abuse happens because of the way someone identifies. I think they commit abuse because they are abusers. I have no problem with using preferred pronouns that they choose to have and still sending them to prison, or isolating them in prison if they pose a danger to others. I don't understand why I have to pick between using a different pronoun and still treating them like a criminal for having committed a crime? Why do you think that choice has to be made?

@ChirpyFinch

I wonder: how far do you go to "recognise other people's gender expression as valid and treat it with respect"? Does that cover, for example, the abusers of women and girls who declare themselves trans women in order to be put into women's prisons? If not, then where do you draw the line?

Right, then I guess what I am trying to understand is what in your mind does "dysphoria that doesn't require medical transition" look like? Take my friend, for example. She is transgender, is happy having socially transitioned and taking hormones but does not want to undergo GRS because she doesn't experience bottom dysphoria but does experience dysphoria because of other parts of her body feeling wrong. Is her dysphoria enough to consider her trans? What about an ex of mine who is non-binary and experiences dysphoria because their body is gendered, so does not want to take feminising hormones or undergo a surgery because that would just alter their body into a different gendered one? Their dysphoria presumably doesn't require medical transition to address but it would be baffling to me to say they aren't trans.

Ok so are you saying that you disagree with the decision reached but accept that it's the way a court decided on it, or are you going further and saying that you agree with the reasons they made the decision? If it's the latter, why? Regarding whether I believe you've gone full TERF or not, I don't think that's related to your opinion on the SC ruling. I think that the reason you might be struggling to have trans friends or get pushed out of trans spaces has less to do with your opinions on the SC and more because, as this thread has shown, you are willing to misgender other trans women. Other trans people may feel like I do, that you can't really be trusted to clear the minimum bar of recognising other people's gender expression as valid and treat it with respect and that's the reason you aren't made to feel welcome in that space.

My sibling was born and lived as a biological man for nearly 50 years. If we are talking together or he is present we all use his preferred new name and pronouns. It makes him happy, it's what he wants and it's important to him. And I would do that for another individual to.
If he'd changed religion, political affiliation or taken up a new hobby we'd also listen politely, show an interest, ask a few questions. But I don't think he'd expect us to affirm his new thing to the same degree as trans. I wouldn't expected to believe in a new god or take up cycling. I won't do the whole TWAW. I also think that it undermines the experience of trans people, I'm a hetro woman I've lived that life. Not the life of my gay friends in homophobic '70s family homes or teenagers in lockdown. I'm interested, thanks for the ama, but I can't join you.
If a friend behaved as my sibling has over the years, we'd have lost contact a long time ago. My sibling crops up every now and then, on their terms and is welcomed, positive memories shared, no obligations insisted on and then they disappear again. He calls in times of stress never to celebrate. He's often mean about things we achieve or value. Seems pretty unconditional compared to most of my friendships.