TW who supports the SC ruling - AMA

Hello @VanishingVision thankyou for starting this thread.

I'm the (gender critical) mum of a transwoman who came out, started taking hormones andchanged his name and documents to female a couple of years ago, and he intends to get a GRC once he has an NHS diagnosis. My DC is in his late twenties and doesn't live with me and DH but we chat regularly, visit etc. I'm going to use son/he/him here (although in real life I always say daughter/she/her because keeping the relationship with my child is so important.) I hope that's OK.

I'm glad you're here because maybe I can ask you some of the questions I can't ask my DC.

I followed the Supreme Court case closely, watched the recordings, read the judgment and followed a lot of the discussion. I listened to laywers and judges talk about the sex discrimination protection and gender reassignment protection that my son now has, including being protected against discrimination from people who want to discriminate against him as a woman. Obviously the this is a good result for women, but I also feel that is that this a good result for my son.

My son doesn't really want to be in women's spaces, certainly not toilets or changing rooms. And one thing that I think is very likely to come out of this judgment is a much better provision of "third spaces", especially once employers and service providers realise they can't just tell transwomen to use the women's facilities. Well they never could, I am pretty sure companies have already lost legal cases for doing that, but now it's clear that really there is no get-out and they have to provide an alternative so I think they will.

But apart from this I can't really articulate why I feel it's good for my child. So one question I wanted to ask is, do you think this is a good judgment for trans people like yoursself? And how is it good for you?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but trans people aren't the ones defining women on the basis that they are the producers of the large gametes.

So the existence of gametes are relevant for determining biological sex, but irrelevant when you can't produce them because you are infertile because...?

If you read the full article, they make this claim:

Like any bimodal distribution, there needs to be a quantitative x-axis.

They then argue that the reason sex is not bimodal is because there is no sensible measurement for this x-axis, They simultaneously argue that you can measure differences in sex expression based on body types and genitalia - this is how we get the claim that there is variation within each category.

So presumably those differences are measurable in order to provide us with the variation, but are not measurable because if they were then we could just use that for the x-axis of a bimodal distribution, which makes more sense when it comes to sex precisely because of the variation.

But do carry on projecting and not really understanding what you’re talking about, it’s truly novel.

Wow. Equating people to their gametes. That's a new low.

I don’t think that infertile women aren’t women though. I think men aren’t.

I'll ask you one of my own - have you always thought that infertile women aren't women because they don't have a "reproductive role" or was that a recent position you've adopted?

Erm, what?

Their conclusion:

"it is clear that sex is not bimodal, but is rather a binary system that is consistent across our species, with plenty of variation within the two categories. Thus, it is the variation of traits within sex category that is bimodal, not sex category itself."

Binary, not bimodal.

What’s the third gamete and what is its reproductive role?

You posted the link honey, what else am I supposed to take from doing that than you think it supports you (it doesn't and you should have probably read it).

So based on my experience you'd correctly refer to me as she because you have no reason not to. I've reached the point where I pass effortlessly in society and it's been many years since someone that didn't know me got it wrong. The bathroom ban does not affect me because no one challenges me ever, but it does affect others I know and care about which is why I think it is important to stake out the ground.

I think what I am asking @Bannedontherun is why you have a line for where your respect begins and ends. Why is validating my name fine for you, but my pronouns are not? Similarly, why is doing it in person not ok, but behind someone's back on an anonymous forum ok?

Me? I said that? Gosh… are all female people just one homogenous entity to some male people?

It's wrong, but helpful. The one I have settled on is to try and explain the experience as being akin to having a splinter you can't remove - it is painful and uncomfortable and you can tune out that feeling to a greater or lesser degree but can't get rid of it. That is why some days are better and others are worse. Left in too long it can fester and cause serious complications - things like mental distress - and so the right thing to do is to remove it through some kind of medical intervention.

So I read this and cannot wrap my head around making this claim right after you've just said that the reason there is no x-axis with which to define a range and that is why it isn't bimodal.

Sex category is binary, defined by the two and only two gamete types that bodies can be structured for. Within the two categories, there is a spectrum of body types for males and a spectrum of body types for females, and this spectrum includes intersex individuals. A graph on the percentage of infants born with differences in sex development shows us that 99.8% of births are unaffected males or females, with typical chromosomal arrangements and typical body structures. Of the 0.2% of births with intersex conditions, most of these infants are also unambiguously male or female.

With such a stark contrast between the bimodal variety of sex differences (seen here) and the binary nature of sex category (seen here), it is clear that sex is not bimodal, but is rather a binary system that is consistent across our species, with plenty of variation within the two categories. Thus, it is the variation of traits within sex category that is bimodal, not sex category itself.

That's the axis right there and is why I can equally find articles that make the supporting claim that it is bimodal:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-science-of-biological-sex/

Doctors - or anyone else really - don't "assign" sex at birth: we observe it. We observe it based on external genitalia (biology), or, if necessary, on further tests (biology again). So yes, it is absolutely biology which dictates which sex is recorded for us at birth.

Edit: by "us", I mean, "everyone", not that I have a DSD.

A person with a difference of sex development can be categorised into either male or female using modern testing techniques.

People are either male or female depending on whether their bodies are formed around production potential of either large or small gametes (ie regardless of whether those gametes are produced or not). No person produces both large and small gametes.

Is this sophistry or do you genuinely not grasp the point being made?

We always end up at “intersex”

Everybody has a sex.

You are either on the female or the male pathway, nobody has two sets of sexual organs only one.

Oh chirpy!!!!

I don't think i am being disrespected or not cared for as a person because someone does not agree with me.

That it is what is so unique about gender ideology.

If i met you i would not point at you or say rude things, i would call you by your chosen name, i would not however refer to you as she.

Ok, so people with DSD are assigned by a doctor to one or the other. Like if your point is that we have two sexes because of the way we record ASAB then that's not biology that decides it is it? Unless we've redefined it to include whatever a doctor says.

Blimey.

https://www.theparadoxinstitute.com/watch/is-sex-bimodal

I think you should stopping insulting people. Sex is binary and each sex has a huge range of different variations.

So unironically one of the ways I have used to try and explain dysphoria to cis people is using the metaphor of being a prisoner in a body that isn't mine. Literally imprisoned because of my biology as it were.

Easy: all DSDs are either male or female. Someone with a male DSD is male; someone with a female DSD is female.

Don't believe me? Show me a DSD that's neither male nor female.