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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Today it's Amnesty Internation on Woman's Hour to discuss the Supreme Court judgment

458 replies

nauticant · 16/05/2025 10:21

With Anita Rani. I am not expecting much in the way of challenges.

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LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/05/2025 22:42

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 22:34

Jen, did you say earlier that you were born in 1983 and have been on the gay and trans scene for 30 years?

‘Jen’ says a lot of things, none of it’s true.

Seethlaw · 16/05/2025 22:40

jenfw · 16/05/2025 13:56

You have asked a woman. Me. I'm a straight woman. I have a friend who is a trans man who believes their should be spaces for both. I used to be against this but my children's half sibling, who was born a girl, now identifies as a trans man. She had contemplated killing herself. Living life as a trans person, from what I've seen, is hell, as there are very few people who accept you, and most want to actively harm you. I don't think these conversations really help anyone, just create more hate, misery and division.

"Living life as a trans person, from what I've seen, is hell, as there are very few people who accept you, and most want to actively harm you."

Er, no? Like, really, no? If that's the experience of the trans people in your life, then I'm really sorry for them, but that's certainly not the universal experience of trans people, far from it.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/05/2025 22:40

jenfw · 16/05/2025 22:25

You are vile, or at least what you have wrote is vile. The person in question is 18. You don't give a toss about womens rights. Judging by your post, it's merely an opportunity for you to spout more poison into the world.The irony is, you're on here, at 10.15 replying to me while allegedly that you support women's rights, while speaking to me, a woman, like utter crp and simultaneously talking the pss about a young person wanting to take their life. But it's ok when you are shrouded by the cloak of anonymity courtesy of Mumsnet. People like you, or at least how you present online, aren't any better then the incels and Andrew Tates of the world. In fact, you are their direct reflection. Probably a grown woman with kids to. I feel desperately sorry for you.

You can’t bully us anymore, we’ve heard it all, all the insults, threats, intimidation, it’s water off a duck’s back. You have no idea who I am just as I have no idea who you are, but what I do know is that you’ve followed the script to the letter -

’I’m a feminist’
‘I’m very close to the gay community’
‘TW are no harm to anyone’
‘I have a close personal friend who’s child is trans and will kill themselves if they can’t transition’
’Men are going to hurt/rape/kill women anyway so why bother to keep them out’

No doubt you’ll be back under a different user name on another thread soon.

MassiveWordSalad · 16/05/2025 22:38

Ive finally had a chance to listen, and I was so flabbergasted from the point when Amnesty Dude was asked about the Darlington nurses that I decided to transcribe it for posterity.

Anita Rani:
We know a group of female nurses in Darlington are currently taking their trust to tribunal for allowing a transwoman to use their single sex changing facilities under a policy of transitioning in the workplace. Why do you believe trans women should be in these spaces?”

Amnesty Dude:
I don't know the specifics of the changing facilities in in that case, but even to use that particular example that you said, for for example, the um if changing facilities or any other kind of facilities are a a space with safeguarding with the right protections for people, regardless of which is any other person that's coming in that space.
That's what anyone deserves from any any kind of space.
I think what I would be reminding people of is this point about the proportionate legitimate need for the exclusion of anyone from any particular service or facility.
So, again, places that may have a large throughput of people, uh places where actually any facility is a private space for changing or anything else.
What would be the argument for the exclusion of anyone from that?
There's obviously in any space, any public space or any private space that any of us are in, we should be protected from any any kind of threat or any danger.
Perhaps again, in this big debate that's happened about one percent of people within society who are are trans, we shouldn't forget that 80% of the of the violence targeted women, much, much too high overall levels of violence, but 80% of that, is from partners, ex partners or friends, the overwhelming, overwhelming amount of which sadly and tragically is from Cis men, men who identify as men.
So that's my the point that I would make about all facility services.
We have an obligation, any of us running organizations, including public organizations, private companies, et cetera, to make sure those services are provided to trans people who cannot be excluded from them, and we need to take that into account in the way that those services are designed and provided, and that has not been affected or changed by that dis judgment, if anything, the Supreme Court reminded us of it.

Anita Rani:
What about the privacy of biological women?

Amnesty Dude:
Privacy is something that all people deserve. Privacy is a right for any of us to have.
I'm not sure why I can quite see the argument that the privacy that any individual deserves in their own life is any more or less required versus anyone from any other different background.
I can't quite see the argument myself as to why the exclusion of some people from services uh from facilities is required for any of us whichever identity that we may have to have the privacy that's our right.

ThatCyanCat · 16/05/2025 22:34

Jen, did you say earlier that you were born in 1983 and have been on the gay and trans scene for 30 years?

jenfw · 16/05/2025 22:25

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/05/2025 22:16

Wow, you’re filling up the bingo card aren’t you? Now it’s the suicide threat that has been universally acknowledged as false so many times I can’t believe you’re dragging it out again.

Cue anguished response accusing me of being heartless in 3, 2, 1…….

You are vile, or at least what you have wrote is vile. The person in question is 18. You don't give a toss about womens rights. Judging by your post, it's merely an opportunity for you to spout more poison into the world.The irony is, you're on here, at 10.15 replying to me while allegedly that you support women's rights, while speaking to me, a woman, like utter crp and simultaneously talking the pss about a young person wanting to take their life. But it's ok when you are shrouded by the cloak of anonymity courtesy of Mumsnet. People like you, or at least how you present online, aren't any better then the incels and Andrew Tates of the world. In fact, you are their direct reflection. Probably a grown woman with kids to. I feel desperately sorry for you.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/05/2025 22:17

MagpiePi · 16/05/2025 14:08

I thought you’d gone….

They haven’t finished scolding yet!

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/05/2025 22:16

jenfw · 16/05/2025 13:56

You have asked a woman. Me. I'm a straight woman. I have a friend who is a trans man who believes their should be spaces for both. I used to be against this but my children's half sibling, who was born a girl, now identifies as a trans man. She had contemplated killing herself. Living life as a trans person, from what I've seen, is hell, as there are very few people who accept you, and most want to actively harm you. I don't think these conversations really help anyone, just create more hate, misery and division.

Wow, you’re filling up the bingo card aren’t you? Now it’s the suicide threat that has been universally acknowledged as false so many times I can’t believe you’re dragging it out again.

Cue anguished response accusing me of being heartless in 3, 2, 1…….

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 16/05/2025 22:11

jenfw · 16/05/2025 13:45

But are they though? Do you have any stats on this? It's a non issue in my opinion. If men want to attack, they will - and the kind that do this, from my experience, aren't going to go to the trouble (or humiliation) of wearing a dress. This discourse is completely distracting from things that are an actual and ubiquitous threat, ie the incels, the Andrew Tate followers. I've seen horrendous things said about women on Facebook. Threats of violence, r*pe, disgustingly misogynistic comments. I've reported a tonne. None have ever been taken down. I've seen and heard boys my son's age (11), saying the most awful things about girls. My friend's daughter, who is 14, had a private Snapchat video of her (which she sent to a straight boy) passed around the whole of the high school. The real, credible, ubiquitous verifiable threat to women and girls is straight men who are not educated / taught to respect women and girls, usually down to historical, cyclical family attitudes / toxic masculinity. In addition to organisations being institutionally misogynist. Jesus, a serving police officer ended the life of an innocent woman walking home. Something is wrong when an organization that is supposed to represent the pinnacle of morality and law causes harm to women. It's 'not a few men wearing a dress' that is a threat to women and girls. It's the macro structure of society and how it embeds misogyny that is the real problem.

‘I've seen horrendous things said about women on Facebook. Threats of violence, r*pe, disgustingly misogynistic comments. I've reported a tonne. None have ever been taken down.’

I’ve seen all of the horrendous things you detail above aimed at JK Rowling and many other prominent women, all from the people who support this ideology that you believe is so harmless, and do you know what the common denominator is? They’re all men, and that’s why they all need to be kept out of women’s spaces.

And by the way, saying ‘if men want to attack they will’ is the most offensive reason for doing nothing to protect women and girls, how dare you suggest that we should just comply to the demands of mentally ill men because they’re going to hurt us anyway, shame on you.

SternJoyousBee · 16/05/2025 21:56

@ScrollingLeaves stunning post at 1707!

redsplodge · 16/05/2025 21:41

I'm not sure my blood pressure can stand listening to today's WH based on the comments above, but if I do, I'll have this ready to put me in a better mood afterwards. Absolutely bugger all connection to the debate whatsoever, but if we're talking mashups....

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHQ-9RBzSZU

Rightsraptor · 16/05/2025 21:18

I've just caught up with all three.

Oh dear, Amnesty man! Oh dearie, dearie me <walking off, shaking head>. Oh dear.

He really didn't have a fecking clue what he was talking about.

Lalgarh · 16/05/2025 21:17

This is via @greenup on a separate thread.

The LSE Law School had a panel on the Supreme court ruling. It's nearly 2 hours long but goes into detail in the ruling. Panel broadly GC. They had asked trans advocates on but couldn't get any for the timing

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/QxEH0cGzIgs?si=OMye14KLmz7zYo6H

ArabellaScott · 16/05/2025 20:41

Haulage · 16/05/2025 20:35

What always amazes me is that none of the MRAs who come here to lecture us are ever happy that transmen have had their right to maternity leave and pregnancy employment protections confirmed by the SC ruling. I realise it’s a particularly female concern, but I’d have thought one of them would have realised what that means.

Absolutely.

Lesbians have their rights protected. Transmen have their rights protected.

But alllllll the noise is because men can't access women's changing rooms and toilets whenever they want.

Haulage · 16/05/2025 20:35

What always amazes me is that none of the MRAs who come here to lecture us are ever happy that transmen have had their right to maternity leave and pregnancy employment protections confirmed by the SC ruling. I realise it’s a particularly female concern, but I’d have thought one of them would have realised what that means.

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/05/2025 20:29

jenfw · 16/05/2025 15:09

I certainly don't think women only spaces should be taken away. But having been on the gay scene for such a long time and around trans people, I recognize their need for protection, too. I don't like to wish harm on anyone (at least those who have not done anything to warrant it).

People withn trans identities do have protection in the equalities act, already. But what they don't have is the protections afforded to the characteristic of 'Sex' unless they are of that sex.

Haulage · 16/05/2025 20:24

I missed the Douglas Fox thing, maybe a little bit before my peak. Just found a Glinner blog about it and also saw Amnesty denying he’d had anything to do with anything whatsoever, honest guv.

[Edit: Actually well before my peakening - this crap’s been going on for flipping AGES]

user2848502016 · 16/05/2025 20:23

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2025 17:07

Transwomen are still males and have the same rate of criminal behaviour as ordinary males.

They are males when they join women’s sports and win or collide with or thump females.

They are males when they are in NHS women’s changing rooms asking them when they’ll be getting undressed, or telling them how hot and sweaty they are as they strip, and males when they are stealing their privacy in order to validate their narcissistic claims about themselves.

They are males when they make a video of themselves liquidising a cat for a lover, then go and murder another man, and they continue to be male even when they are reported in the news as being a woman.

They are males when they take over a rape crisis centre then tell female rape victims to reframe their trauma and that they enjoyed the sex.

They are males when they take photos of themselves in the women’s ‘bathrooms’ wanking. Or become head of the girl guides while enjoying and publicising their bondage fetish at the same time. Or doing drag story time to little kids in tight sequins and getting an erection.

They are males, willing to rob a child, and quite possibly sometimes fetishists abusing babies by using them for gratification, often when they take up ‘breastfeeding’ babies after ingesting chemicals.

They are males when having lived as males through the ‘60s and rising through the armed services as a male doctor with most female potential counterparts of those days housewives at home, they get praised by the President for being the first woman admiral in the US navy.

A transwoman is a male when he wins the women’s booker prize and a woman does not.

They are males when they rape someone with ‘her penis’ then put on pink tights.

They are males when they rape on a women’s hospital ward where they have been put but are protected from the ensuing police enquiry by hospital staff who tell the police ‘there were no men here’.

They are males when as ‘women’ they continue to watch their wife serve the food and clear it away when a guest has come to visit them as the well known writer they are; and they keep taking their daughter away from boarding schools where she is happy after haggling at headmistresses because they just have to have the upper hand over all women.

They are males when they are on Woman’s Hour telling everyone that women’s rights to privacy dignity and protection from males, including in various settings affecting their life as biological women, are in fact his special rights too as a special sort of man.

The list is long.

Brilliant post @ScrollingLeaves

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2025 20:22

EsmeQuibbles · 16/05/2025 20:13

https://catwinternational.org/2016/05/its-official-amnesty-international-creates-the-human-right-to-pimp-and-purchase-sexual-acts/

There was this. I think the man responsible for that policy has moved onto another international charity now.
Edited to reply to @Hotbathcoldknees upthread.

Edited

Maybe Woman’s Hour should be reminded about this AI abusive stance towards women when they advocate for brothels, primps and traffickers rather than prostituted women.

Ironically, given AIs championing of Transwomen in women’s spaces, Transwomen around the world are more likely to be abused in the sex trade too ( not in men’s lavatories in the U.K.).

ArabellaScott · 16/05/2025 20:18

Was that relating to Douglas Fox? Re the 'pimp' on the board:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/douglas-fox

'A motion to the 2008 Amnesty UK AGM calling for the decriminalisation of sex work was put forward by Newcastle City Group of Amnesty, of which Mr Fox was a member. The policy proposed by the Group was rejected by Amnesty UK’s AGM. Instead the AGM then took the decision to call for a policy review, a decision that was opposed - unsuccessfully - by Newcastle City Group and Mr Fox.
The effect of the Amnesty UK AGM decision was to require Amnesty UK's board to ask the governing bodies of the global movement to review our policies. This request was made in 2009 through a motion to the International Council Meeting. Amnesty UK did not call for the decriminalisation of sex work. Ultimately, Amnesty UK did not feel that there was sufficient support for this request, and the request was withdrawn.'

EsmeQuibbles · 16/05/2025 20:18

I missed that one Haulage. There's a lot of it about it seems.

Haulage · 16/05/2025 20:14

Hotbathcoldknees · 16/05/2025 19:46

Tell us more please or a link?

I remember there being a bit of comment about this on Twitter at the time: https://socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentIrishSocialistTDsAndNGOsJoinForcesToDisenfranchiseWomenAndMaterialists.html

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