Today it's Amnesty Internation on Woman's Hour to discuss the Supreme Court judgment

So is the solution then to bar straight men from single sex spaces, but not gay ones? I wonder how easy that would be... much easier to simply ban men.

Your missing the point @jenfw it's not genuine trans people who want to go about their business that's the problem here
It's the men who identify as trans to gain access to women only spaces
Changing rooms. Rape crisis centres, sports teams. And use this to inflict SA and harassment against women and girls

What's a shame is that the trans community who were happily cracking on have now been infiltrated with men with lady dicks and men who are lesbians and the lesbians are terrible people if they don't suck a man's "lady dick" so therefore it's not the trans identifying people in the gay bar. It's the men in the brownie bunk we want out our spaces

Tell what? That they were trans? By having conversations, generally treating trans people like they didn't have leprosy. My best friend (since aged 13, I'm now 42), is gay so have been on the scene for long time. His partner also used to do drag. Most toilets in gay bars / clubs etc. were mixed anyway, and I never once had a problem in years and years of being on the gay scene, which included mixing with a lot of trans men and women. I can't say the same about the straight scene. Harassed (verbally, physically) harassed by so many men , as have my friends when we have been out.

I have also wondered whether we will start to see more division within the trans community with those ‘old skool’ transitioners seeking to separate themselves from modern, aggressive TRAs.

Buck Angel talks about this a lot. Buck transitioned about thirty years ago I think, knows what their biological sex is and acknowledges it. Buck uses the term ‘transsexual’ and rejects the term ‘transgender’. Buck often says that TRAs are ruining everything- for women, for gay and lesbian people and for transsexuals.

I don’t think they ever published it, did they? Maybe that’s why.

Sometimes, I think that these 'scientific' T-shirts should become popular again. They were around a few years ago. This one feels right for this thread.

Maybe I should have a look at the back of the New Scientist to see if they are still advertised there?

Pray tell, how do we differentiate between these men and the genuine trans identifying men?

By them not being in gay clubs, perhaps?

I must say "as a woman I've never had a problem with the men in gay clubs" is one of the weaker arguments I've heard.

Not terribly clear how you extend that analysis to wider society for the vast majority of men.

I wonder how you could tell?

You mean like the straight men who say they are trans to gain access to women/girls and try and coerce lesbians to accept 'girl-dick'?

Pray tell, how do we differentiate between these men and the genuine trans identifying men?

But, but Amnesty were interveners!

What the fuck did they say in their intervention submission??

We think men should be allowed in women's spaces, because women get killed by intimate partners?

This must be another one of those pesky 'incoherent' thingies.

Quite apart from anything else, under that logic all those men who murder their intimate partners, can now access more vulnerable women in their own private spaces.

Or is it all right for us to get undressed amongst murderers and rapists, as long as they wait till they get home before they do it

Ffs. What morons these men are

Good point @nauticant

I suppose it was to be expected, but is anyone else sick to the back teeth of the chat about the SC judgement being all about the poor men and their hurty feelz? In my workplace it started the very afternoon of the judgement with the first of several emails telling us that 1) trans people are worried and upset and we need to look after them, 2) policies about facilities in our workplace haven't changed (the implication is that they won't, although when I asked HR they pointed out that the emails don't actually say there won't be any changes coming), and 3) here are lots of organisations you can go to for help, no prizes for guessing which ones they are (yes, the ones who misled everyone about the law in the first place). The tone of all the emails is that the SC judgement is a problem despite which my organisation remains committed to trans inclusion. Not a single email has included the word woman, or said anything positive about the judgement.

Helen was a breath of fresh air on WH, reminding everyone that the judgement is actually about women, and clarifying women's rights. Everywhere else it's all about the "trans community", primarily trans-identifying men. If the Supreme Court judgement isn't enough to re-orient the discussion back to women even a little bit, I'm beginning to feel like nothing will.

Do they still have a pimp on the board? And campaign for removing the right to vote from women in Ireland who object to transideology?

Being the CEO and Amnesty's representative is exactly why he should have read it. If he was too important to do it then they should have sent on someone who wasn't. Although judging by the absolute halfwits in charge of the social media, maybe there's nobody left there now who can read anything beyond Spot the Dog.

I wonder how successful a fund-raising move it is when a lot of your regular givers probably thought you spent your time focused on political prisoners?

Is the Amnesty CEO shaking his tin cup and reminding watchers of TV that they exist … and that Amnesty needs money? Trans in UK hardly huge issue IN MY Opinion. There’s much worse tragedy in world than a trans doctors feelings when a woman doesn’t want him watching her undress after he ASKs her to undress ... at work.

Many male trans people are “straight men”. Every male who claims he is a lesbian is.

If I was going on a nationwide media show under intense social media scrutiny where I could be made to look like a complete idiot, you can be sure I’d read the SC judgment myself.

Wrong. I've been on the gay scene for nearly 30 years. Met loads of trans people in clubs, etc. Never once felt threatened. Me and all of my female friends though have all experience things - r*pe, childhood sa, dv, gaslighting, misogyny, upskirting, having drinks spiked - none of which were perpetrated by trans but STRAIGHT men.

Ah, didn’t read the whole thread. I see OldCrone reached the same conclusion before me*

It’s happened before here that TRAs have “accidentally” quoted from judgments that have since been superseded, portraying the out of date judgment as the correct legal position. Maybe it’s simply incompetence, maybe it’s disinformation with plausible deniability.

He read the wrong judgement!

Plus ça change 🙄