Today it's Amnesty Internation on Woman's Hour to discuss the Supreme Court judgment

The trouble is, who defines a trans person? Excluding those who have the GRA certificate, there’s no definition. As Eddy Izzard demonstrates, one day you can portray as a man, the next as a lady. However, there was nothing stopping Eddie, or any other male, walking into a ladies toilet, woman’s refuge, gym woman’s communal changing rooms and saying he is entitled to use them.

I agree, most ‘genuine’ trans people do not pose a threat, but the pendulum has now swung too far and abusers are using the early transsexual privileges for their own misdeeds.

I don't understand, are you saying men pretending to be trans identifying men wouldn't go a gay club so any trans identifying men you encounter in a gay club must be fine and dandy genuine? I don't think that's a thing.

No, I'm saying that a sample of men in a gay club isn't going to be representative sample of men generally. (Trans-identifying or not).

The vast majority of them would have been homosexual, therefore anecdotes about not never having had a problem with all those men don't carry much weight for the world outside gay clubs.

These days there no doubt would be a higher incidence of trans "lesbians" showing up in gay spaces, but 20-30 years ago, the vast majority of transsexuals in such places would have been interested in men. Straight transvestites were not part of the gay scene.

Weirdly this episode is still not available to listen to wheras several later programs are. Hope it’s available to download for the school run.

I know, the logic is so absent, it's rather breathtaking

You are confident in bars, clubs, gay clubs, around trans women etc. Great. Lucky you. You do realise that lots of women aren't? My adult daughters are both adopted. One has a moderate learning disability. She does not go to bars or clubs because of her vulnerability and she certainly wouldn't cope with encountering a trans woman in the ladies. She would be like the autistic girl banned by the FA for asking if there was a man there at best - at worst she would have a panic attack as her anxiety in public places is off the scale. Her sister is massively hypervigilant, avoids toilets and changing rooms as a result, but would have a panic attack if she encountered a male in the ladies.

You can't assume that since you are comfortable around people with a queer lifestyle that everyone else must be too. I

Ah, right. I see you're a Troll.

If men want to attack, they will - and the kind that do this, from my experience, aren't going to go to the trouble (or humiliation) of wearing a dress.

such a tell.

Dressing as a woman is just the dregs, so humiliating for men, ugh.

So what you're saying is that because if a man wants to attack women he will anyway...... and you're actually using this to justify why women shouldn't have single sex spaces?😂

In addition, what is your stance on intersex people who have both sexual organs?

I was born in 1983 love. Not possible.

You do realise, that statistically if a male prisoner identifies as trans, he's more likely to be a sex offender, than the general male prison population.

It's interesting, though. You want us to include gay men, men who identify as trans, but only the ones who are same-sex attracted? Not your trans lesbians? And who else? Maybe old men? Disabled men? Or maybe just weaker men in general?

Or perhaps we could have a sort of Myers Briggs version of likely sex offending? And if you pass, you get an all access ticket?

Or, and I know this is really fucking radical, and like totally out there, but bear with...

... we could just ask the bloody women? The women who don't want men in their spaces, irrespective of what they're wearing, how old they are, or whether or not you bloody like them.

Revolutionary, I know!

The motivations of a transwoman wanting access to female single sec spaces is irrelevant. They are ALL men. We can’t start differentiating between the nice transwomen and any other male who claims to be trans. The law cannot differentiate between them either. @jenfw meeting men in gay clubs in the 80s is also irrelevant.

Toilets are being used as a distraction.
A transwoman cannot be Isla in the public toilets and Adam in prison. A person is either female for they are not. They are no degrees of being a female/woman.

The principle here is our rights to maintain our single sex spaces, services, facilties and sport.

I wouldn't say so. Both me and my sister were sa'd by a male, elderly neighbor for years during our childhood. My Dad was physically abusive and drank. I hav been r*ped. I was in a relationship where my partner of four years tried to kill me by pushing me out of a moving vehicle. All the violence I have been subjected to was by straight men, with none of them ever wearing a dress.

I don't understand, are you saying men pretending to be trans identifying men wouldn't go a gay club so any trans identifying men you encounter in a gay club must be fine and dandy genuine? I don't think that's a thing.

And gay men tend to be misogynistic so I actually think your argument is nonsense

Yes @jenfw men are a threat to women
So keep them out of our spaces...yes?

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/amnesty-can-no-longer-claim-defend-human-rights-if-it-backs-decriminalising

Just putting this here, it's from a decade ago but is a reminder that Amnesty has been promoting men's interests over women's for a long time.

Most trans women are straight men. Some are gay or bi or asexual but most are straight. And all are men.

It's great that no men identifying as women have ever harmed threatened you but they have absolutely harmed and threatened other women and they don't belong in the ladies for the same reason all other men don't belong there. They're not spaces for women and men without convictions. They're spaces for women. You might consent to them being mixed sex but you can't consent for other people. I consent to sex with my husband, doesn't mean you have to.

You should be fine with additional mixed sex spaces if your end game really is safe and appropriate spaces for all.

Over 70 % of “ Trans men” are straight….

But are they though? Do you have any stats on this? It's a non issue in my opinion. If men want to attack, they will - and the kind that do this, from my experience, aren't going to go to the trouble (or humiliation) of wearing a dress. This discourse is completely distracting from things that are an actual and ubiquitous threat, ie the incels, the Andrew Tate followers. I've seen horrendous things said about women on Facebook. Threats of violence, r*pe, disgustingly misogynistic comments. I've reported a tonne. None have ever been taken down. I've seen and heard boys my son's age (11), saying the most awful things about girls. My friend's daughter, who is 14, had a private Snapchat video of her (which she sent to a straight boy) passed around the whole of the high school. The real, credible, ubiquitous verifiable threat to women and girls is straight men who are not educated / taught to respect women and girls, usually down to historical, cyclical family attitudes / toxic masculinity. In addition to organisations being institutionally misogynist. Jesus, a serving police officer ended the life of an innocent woman walking home. Something is wrong when an organization that is supposed to represent the pinnacle of morality and law causes harm to women. It's 'not a few men wearing a dress' that is a threat to women and girls. It's the macro structure of society and how it embeds misogyny that is the real problem.

Well, aren’t you the fortunate one eh…what about those women who have ?

@LesserCelandine I completely agree...think what I was trying to say is

Just stay out of our spaces 😅

Probably the smartest move they've made all year

Your missing the point it's not genuine trans people who want to go about their business that's the problem here

Yes they are a problem. I don’t care whether men genuinely feel they are what they imagine a woman is or not, they must stay out of female spaces.

Exactly @Nomoreidea and if you can't tell which trans identifying men are the bad ones.

Best to exclude those men from women's only spaces 🤷‍♀️