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Original poster

I stuck my head above the parapet

322 replies

RedCrochetedWigFace · 16/05/2025 07:44

So I work for a smallish company but we have a few different branches throughout the country. I think each branch has a least one trans woman. I've no idea if we've any transmen. They don't make as much of a drama and noise if we do.

There is a staff group who are generally well meaning but they've started kicking off about how awful the supreme court ruling is blah blah blah. They are mostly women. I tried respectfully pointing out that no-one has lost any rights and that it's actually protecting women's rights.

I said that I want any trans people to feel comfortable at work and if that's not the case then action absolutely needs to be taken but that the supreme court judgement shouldn't make a difference to that. Someone said what about the "ugly women who look like men" who were dragged out of women's toilets. I said that was an awful thing to call a woman and misogynist. I was accused of avoiding the question. They said that the ruling meant that women who don't look/present as women will also suffer and seemed to think that undermined the argument that no ones rights were being negatively impacted.

I just reiterated that anyone feeling unsafe at work needs support regardless of gender/perceived gender or any other factor. I asked what the group wanted to achieve. They said they want trans people to feel safe at work. I dont think I hid my exasperation.

I'm pretty sure I was respectful throughout. I tried to be.

Now I have a meeting with my manager and HR on Tuesday. I have spoken with ACAS. It's not a formal meeting so I'm not allowed to take anyone in with me.

FFS.

OP posts:
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9
wantmorenow · 20/05/2025 10:20

Good luck with today. Lurking but waving a flag for you. X

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/05/2025 09:16

Good luck @RedCrochetedWigFace x

bigboykitty · 20/05/2025 09:06

You're in my thoughts today 💪

AndrogynousElf · 20/05/2025 08:06

Good luck

Helleofabore · 20/05/2025 07:53

All the best OP

Dhama · 20/05/2025 07:51

You’ve had excellent advice so I won’t add to that (as I can’t !) but just wanted to wish you luck today x

IwantToRetire · 20/05/2025 02:18

I too am hoping all goes well tomorrow, well later today in fact.

Of all the suggestions made, just go with the one or ones that you feel most comfortable with.

This is just an "informal" chat.

And if they try to put pressure on you, or something, just say you hadn't realised it would be that type of meeting.

I am sure you will do fine.

murasaki · 19/05/2025 23:37

Enough4me · 19/05/2025 23:32

Let us know how it goes OP.
Remember put yourself first in terms of job security and it's fine to answer with a question "can you explain what that means?" , "can you give me an example?", "can I research that and get back to you as I'm not sure what you mean"?
Gender is a manmade construct and difficult to factually describe (as it's not factual), so asking them open questions puts them on the gender woo tightrope where they can slip up.

Totally agree with this, get them to define anything they ask.

Best of luck tomorrow.

Enough4me · 19/05/2025 23:32

Let us know how it goes OP.
Remember put yourself first in terms of job security and it's fine to answer with a question "can you explain what that means?" , "can you give me an example?", "can I research that and get back to you as I'm not sure what you mean"?
Gender is a manmade construct and difficult to factually describe (as it's not factual), so asking them open questions puts them on the gender woo tightrope where they can slip up.

lcakethereforeIam · 19/05/2025 20:14

All the best for tomorrow OP.

NeverOneBiscuit · 19/05/2025 19:28

Apologies, hadn’t caught up with the thread before posting. I agree, time to stop feeding the monster.

NeverOneBiscuit · 19/05/2025 19:10

@AzureCritic Why would I need to put Cakeblanchet’s factual, reasoned response into ChatGPT to see ‘the propaganda’?

Surely if I’m so clearly being hoodwinked you can take the post apart for me? Actually I’d really appreciate that, you know, debate & all that.

I’ll wait …….

Manderleyagain · 19/05/2025 13:55

posted before (I think) about a transwoman complaining that a pcos etc group didn't welcome them with open arms and the group had to close. Obviously that's not the formal reason but everyone knows its the real reason.

OP of this was at work it suggests a real problem with that individual tw, and also with the broader culture at your workplace that this one person was able to ruin something. On a general point it shows how useless all the 'people with ovaries' language is. Even when you do limit something to a specific body part or function it can still be derailed.

I hope the meeting goes well. In fact I hope you are pleasantly surprised. And please do keep us posted.

Helleofabore · 19/05/2025 13:39

lcakethereforeIam · 19/05/2025 13:06

Was just thinking of reposting that here. Very clear and pertinent advice esp.

I suggest that you avoid sending out messages which express sympathy with one protected group as you will expose your organisation to charges that you are partisan and have ‘picked a side’. And these sorts of communications will be disclosable in any legal proceedings and will be used by your opponent to undermine your credibilty.

That is pretty direct advice. In this day and age though where staff have been primed that certain groups get priority treatment, I feel it is too late.

ANameChangePresents · 19/05/2025 13:18

I'm so much more interested in what the OP has to report than the unhinged ruminations of some trans activist. NGL.

LesserCelandine · 19/05/2025 13:16

lcakethereforeIam · 19/05/2025 13:06

Was just thinking of reposting that here. Very clear and pertinent advice esp.

I suggest that you avoid sending out messages which express sympathy with one protected group as you will expose your organisation to charges that you are partisan and have ‘picked a side’. And these sorts of communications will be disclosable in any legal proceedings and will be used by your opponent to undermine your credibilty.

Which is why I think it would be helpful to spend the first part of the meeting pinning down, in writing, exactly what the complaint is before responding. (And allowing awkward slicences rather than jumping in to help the HR person). They will either expose themselves as discriminatory and without knowledge of how the equality act works. Or they will back down.

WallaceinAnderland · 19/05/2025 13:14

I've just read that too. Should be very helpful to OP.

'If you’ve allowed staff to self ID into toilets/changing rooms that don’t align with their biological sex, you will need to put in place a new policy and communicate this to your staff.'

The law is clear.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/05/2025 13:12

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/05/2025 12:50

Op - if you haven't given up in despair on this thread after all the derailing, this guidance about the SC judgment and businesses for retailers from Irwin Mitchell looks very useful:

https://www.theretailbulletin.com/retail-solutions/legal-do-retailers-have-to-provide-single-sex-toilets-and-changing-rooms-for-their-customers-and-staff-19-05-2025/

Yes, this is very welcome.

lcakethereforeIam · 19/05/2025 13:06

Was just thinking of reposting that here. Very clear and pertinent advice esp.

I suggest that you avoid sending out messages which express sympathy with one protected group as you will expose your organisation to charges that you are partisan and have ‘picked a side’. And these sorts of communications will be disclosable in any legal proceedings and will be used by your opponent to undermine your credibilty.

WallaceinAnderland · 19/05/2025 12:27

What happened to 3 strikes and you're out which used to be the rule on this board?

Good luck for tomorrow OP. Let us know how it goes.

Delphin · 19/05/2025 09:47

@RedCrochetedWigFace All the best for your meeting with the higher-ups 🤞.

Maybe you can ask at Mumsnet Central for those comments and replies on this thread to be deleted, that are not on topic of the original question, so as not to invite more off topic stuff? Or if they don't want to do that, have the thread locked and start anew?

To @everyone: What happened to Don't feed the troll? Maybe we should just stop replying completely to this kind of baiting? It's not as if we haven't heard it all, and can't identify this type of poster quickly (and these men won't be swayed by arguments from women). If these men don't get replies and engagement, they will go away. And if a newbie still replies to baiting, one could ask her nicely to retract/delete her reply, and explain why.

Annoyedone · 19/05/2025 05:12

AzureCritic · 18/05/2025 20:11

Intersectional feminism includes men because it recognizes that gender inequality affects everyone, not just women. While feminism mainly fights for women's rights, intersectional feminism also looks at how different identities (like race, class, sexuality, and gender) overlap to shape people's experiences — including men.
For example:

  • Men of color may face racial stereotypes that intersect with gender expectations.
  • Gay or trans men can face discrimination that's different from straight, cisgender men.
  • Men in poverty may be harmed by systems that expect them to always be providers.
So, intersectional feminism aims to break down unfair systems that hurt people across all genders — making society better for everyone, including men.

It's incredible how clueless you faux feminists are l

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So you’re saying transwomen are men then? If you’re saying we’re not feminists because we dint include men, and we don’t include transwomen, ergo you’re claiming TW are men. Totally agree.

IwantToRetire · 19/05/2025 02:04

RNApolymerase · 18/05/2025 20:37

I came on to the thread to see how the OP was getting on. Targetting a thread where the OP was asking for support with the sort of posts that end up getting deleted is just about what you'd expect, isn't it.

OP - hope it goes OK for you next week.

Exactly - I came to check on any updates and hope OP is feeling more confident - with right and FWR on her side.

And there are all these derailing posts.

Seriously, I know many threads can start of in one direction, and then develop into something else, but on a thread where someone is asking for help, there is no need to take the opportunity for a tangent.

If you think you have a general or specific point, nothing to stop you strting your own thread.

How is this different from whataboutery

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/05/2025 01:48

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/05/2025 20:16

You're from a country where feminism has failed, because your kind of fauxfeminism is the only kind.

That's why women in your country lack basic rights that they have pretty much everywhere else in the developed world and in half the developing world.

If feminists in your country were a bit more JK Rowling and a bit less Judith Butler, women might have the right to safe and legal abortions in every part of the country and basic stuff like, you know, paid maternity leave.

The only thing Americans have to teach the rest of the world about feminism is how not to do it.

Sit down.

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