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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression

853 replies

BisiBodi · 15/05/2025 06:38

Firstly, this thread is for open discussion on a specific topic, stated at the end. It is not a thread that sits in judgement, or calls for people to sit in judgement, of the Supreme Court finding.

Now, read that first sentence again before proceeding.

So, I am posting this with the full permission of the individual concerned, whose photograph - again posted with their permission - is on the thread. The reason for that photograph will become evident soon.

Caz is a cis woman and a very, very successful music producer and DJ in London. She has recently been very vocal online about a recent incident that was almost certainly created as a result of the SC ruling and the subsequent interpretation by certain members of society. Here is her original post:

"This photo of me was taken a few days ago. This is what I look like, not that it matters, but to set the scene…
I was at the Festival Hall. Toilets on either side of two lifts - men’s on one side, women’s on the other. I was in the queue for the women’s. Men were queueing across from me.
I was facing into the bathroom, so from behind, you couldn’t see my face. I was just standing there, minding my business, when I heard someone shout,
“The men’s toilets are over here!”
I ignored it at first thinking someone was letting their mate know. But he kept shouting it "The men's toilet are this side!". Then I felt a tap on my shoulder, (meaning he came into the corridor of the women's toilets), he poked me and said
“Do you realise this is the women’s toilet?!”
Up to that point, he hadn’t seen my face. So what was he judging me on? My haircut? My hoodie?
Also, I was surrounded by women. It was pretty obvious I knew which toilet it was.
His energy was aggressive. I was shocked. I looked him straight in the face and asked: “What sex do you think I am?” Affronted he said: “I don’t know!”
Here’s where I wish I’d said, “If you don’t know, then shut the f**k up!”
But instead, I said: “Would you like to see my tits?”
I started unzipping my hoodie. He panicked: “No no no, don’t do that!”
His wife came out of the loo and saw what was going down and said with urgency, “Let’s go now!.”
She rushed him away before all the ladies around me could properly react. They were horrified by what they saw. One lovely lady said to me, "I can’t believe what I just saw!" Another one said, “I am so, so sorry you had to experience that. I held back from speaking up till it was too late because when he came and touched you, I thought he must have known you.” Another woman said, "You are welcome here!" and yet another said, "You must report him and get him kicked out!" I stood there, shocked, and unfortunately didn’t react quickly enough.
What’s interesting is that he wasn’t a staff member. He was just a random member of the public.
Also, my attire was more on the masculine side. So if he thought I was a trans woman, why would I be dressing like a man? If he thought I was a trans man, then under the new rules, I was in the right toilet!
His policing was based on my hair? My clothes? Maybe I had cancer? Or maybe I just like my hair that way. What makes him think any of that gives him the right to behave like that?!
It is fair to say also that I could have been a butch trans women but that is the whole point, you can't judge from a hair cut several meters away and its not anyone's place to.
For the record, I’m not offended by being thought to be a man. I have a strong male energy, (female too sometimes!). However I often feel if I could press a button and turn into a man I might, I don’t feel like I’ve earned the right to call myself trans, given the immense things people go through to be right in their body… but in spirit perhaps I am. Asides this I am a 100% biological born unchanged female.
What was offensive was his assumption that this kind of behaviour is OK.
This is what these new laws and rules are doing — they’re not making it safer for everyone. They’re fuelling public entitlement and policing of gender expression.
Afterwards, I tried to find them. I thought maybe it would help to have a conversation. To understand. Did he think he was protecting his wife? What made him do that?
I’ve been meaning to speak out on this issue for a while. But I’ve had a lot going on, it’s been a difficult time and I haven’t felt I had the head space.
In a strange way, I’m grateful for this moment. It gave me the push I needed to finally say something.
I genuinely believe there’s misunderstanding from a few of the much older cis community about what it means to be trans. I mean this compassionately, It is just something they do not understand and it frightens them. I wish I’d got to talk to that guy… open conversations are needed to understand what fears are fuelling their prejudice."

Again, the purpose of this thread is not to pass judgement on whether the SC ruling was right or wrong, everybody has their own opinions on that, but rather to open a dialogue on - and raise awareness of - the effect that that ruling is having on the small but disproportionately loud and aggressive members of society, and the fear being generated as a result.

Speaking personally, I am hearing many reports of bathroom aggression - perpetrated by both men and women - against anyone who doesn't 'look right', regardless of the facts or a sense of common respect for others.
Now that the ruling has passed, I think that as women the best we can do here - the absolute bare minimum if we want to consider ourselves reasonable, respectful members of society - is to be aware that this kind of horror does happen and is happening, and to call out that bullshit if we encounter it.

I'd be interested in your thoughts...

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
OP posts:
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7
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/05/2025 20:52

While I agree that a person can’t change their biology, nobody is saying a trans woman is a woman according to the equality act or anything of the sort. But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against.

Well that depends. If the transperson's biology is male then they can be discriminated against to keep them out of women's facilties. That's not disrespectful. Biologically male transpeople can insist on using the men's facilities and to be treated with respect in those facilities otherwise that would be illegal discrimination; and if for any reason that doesn't work then an employer would have to provide some kind of individual or unisex facility.

Same applies to transpeople with female biology, they can't use men's facilities and should be treated respectfully in women's facilities but additionally if they've been on cross-sex hormones and look / sound / etc so convincingly masculine that their presence is disturbing to other women then they could be excluded from both single-sex facilities, and then an individual or unisex facility would need to be provided for the transperson's privacy and respect.

As you can see, some effort and campaigning may be needed to make sure these additional unisex facilities exist for everyone who needs them. So transpeople shouldn't waste energy trying to get into wrong-sex facilities. That door is now closed.

Arran2024 · 15/05/2025 20:46

Butterflybrain1 · 15/05/2025 20:34

I didn’t say that women shouldn’t have access to single sex provisions - that’s a total straw man. And I think you probably know it. And I think you probably also know why toilets are different to prisons and sexual assault services. I hope you’ve never had to access either, but I can assure you the vibe is very different to popping for a wee in M&S cafe. Nice try though.

While I agree that a person can’t change their biology, nobody is saying a trans woman is a woman according to the equality act or anything of the sort. But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against. I also appreciate that there are quite a large number of trans people who ‘pass’ - what do we do there then? Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now cos if so, I’m going to have to start paying more attention to my bikini line.

"Passing" is irrelevant. Most trans women who pass do so due to youth, which will fade. You can't reward the most dishonest behaviour by giving them special privileges. This leads to people wanting kids to have puberty blockers because it will help them pass.

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 20:45

Sortumn · 15/05/2025 15:43

There are whole threads where women have described their journey from so credulous our brains nearly dropped out, to stuffy old dinosaurs. Or frothing TERFS as you refer to some women. That doesn't happen overnight and It's nothing to do with age and everything to do with experience, instinct and rational thought.

The frothing I refer to is in relation to the complete lack of nuance and refusal to see that there is nuance and shades of grey in this debate.

I actually thought I might be a bit on the TERFY side, because I don’t think feminism applies to transwomen. Mainly because it’s a whole different experience growing up as a girl in this world, being socialised as a girl, going through puberty, dealing with all the patriarchal bullshit. I think it devalues the experiences of both sets of people.

My age and experience (thanks for the free patronising by the way, I usually have to take my car to a garage for that) of working with very vulnerable people has taught me it really is generally better to not be a shit about things. Rather hope I don’t grow out of that.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/05/2025 20:44

"Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now..."

Bingo!
It always amuses me the fetish about genitals that transactivists post when they speak about women's toilets. Such a give away.

What we do with all these "passing" trans people is expect them to be fully functioning grown ups and obey the law - follow the social contract that existed for years where people respected women's right to privacy from random men in spaces where they're vulnerable. For years women have been suggesting third spaces and having it rejected - access to women's undressed /vulnerable bodies is what was demanded by trans identified men.

The gig is now up. Grow up, respect the laws of the land, recognise the rights of others and focus on being constructive members of society. Women should never have had the right to single sex spaces, sport, hospital wards, prisons etc removed without democratic consent. The law has finally been confirmed and men will just have to live with it.

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 20:36

Brefugee · 15/05/2025 14:27

I didn’t see any ageism there. I’m only in my 40s

give it a decade @Frazzled83 The ageism was very clear.
reading the rest of your post: either you haven't understood the SC statement and the EA 2010 or you don't want to understand it.

Feel free to campaign for 3rd spaces for trans people. But until they have them everywhere, where they aren't available, they use the correct toilet for their sex.

Cut that sentence off nicely there to take it out of context. Nice job.

Butterflybrain1 · 15/05/2025 20:34

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 18:39

Transwomen are men. Whether they have surgical procedures or not they are males. Humans cannot change sex.

We cannot have single sex spaces and allow some men who we think are nice to join us. That space would no longer be single sex. Our needs are compromised by their wants.

Why do you believe that women should not have access to single sex provisions? Because if a transwoman is a woman for the purpose of toilets why not for prisons and rape crisis centres? It’s not coherent to say that a transwoman is a woman in the Equality Act for some purposes but not others. That makes no sense.

The focus on toilets is not from us. Toilets are being used as some sort of ‘gotcha’. Transwomen can use the men’s toilets.

Edited

I didn’t say that women shouldn’t have access to single sex provisions - that’s a total straw man. And I think you probably know it. And I think you probably also know why toilets are different to prisons and sexual assault services. I hope you’ve never had to access either, but I can assure you the vibe is very different to popping for a wee in M&S cafe. Nice try though.

While I agree that a person can’t change their biology, nobody is saying a trans woman is a woman according to the equality act or anything of the sort. But the equality act is pretty clear that a transperson is a human being who is deserving of respect and not to be discriminated against. I also appreciate that there are quite a large number of trans people who ‘pass’ - what do we do there then? Am I going to have to start showing my vulva to gain access to single sex spaces now cos if so, I’m going to have to start paying more attention to my bikini line.

Alucard55 · 15/05/2025 20:30

I heard someone say non-trans women the other day🙄. I presume the men who are biologicaly male and act entitled at best and preditory at worst make better women than plain boring biological women.

dinglethedragon · 15/05/2025 20:26

Christinapple · 15/05/2025 16:15

A cisgender person just means someone who isn't trans. HTH

not really. It's like telling an atheist they must be a catholic if they are not a protestant.

I don't believe in gender woo, I reject your entire framework of belief - you are free to have your religious beliefs about gendered souls flying down to earth but being born in the "wrong" body - but don't expect the rest of us to either agree with you, or agree to being defined according to your gender woo terminology and beliefs.

i don't have "a gender" I have a biological sex and a personality. So, no. I am not "cisgender".

HardyCrow · 15/05/2025 19:42

Arran2024 · 15/05/2025 19:11

Well said. Any man who decides to walk into the ladies is transgressing and knows it. Helping them transgress is not cool.

Absolutely

HardyCrow · 15/05/2025 19:36

Igmum · 15/05/2025 06:56

Yup. She’s obviously a woman with short hair. This has been all over social media as some form of gotcha but I cannot see why the fact that one man is a well-intentioned dick head means that women can’t have single sex rape shelters.

This.

potpourree · 15/05/2025 19:31

Sure if Gary the builder buys a frock on and calls himself Sally, I don’t want to be in the toilet with him. But that’s not a trans woman. That’s Gary being a creepy dude.

I can't work out the point of this post - Is this supposed to be a quote from a "frothing terf" and not the poster's own view? Surely the poster knows that that's a "frothing terf" statement? That's what you get called when you say things like "sex exists and on some occasions it matters".

Arran2024 · 15/05/2025 19:11

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 16:32

It's interesting that you've made the "rights are not pie" argument in a context where it is clear that rights are in fact pie.

The most obvious example of this is in a women's sporting category. Say it's a swim meet, there are 8 lanes in a swimming pool and Lia Thomas is in one of them. The swimming pool is a pie cut into 8 pieces, and because Lia Thomas got one of those pieces, there's a female swimmer out there who failed to qualify and didn't get a piece of pie.

The pie analogy is less obvious when it comes to female only spaces, but I think it still kind of works. Imagine that you are at a pizza party. One person is vegetarian and another is Jewish. A kosher pizza with no meat products has been provided for them. Someone else at the party who is not vegetarian or Jewish likes the look of that pizza so they cut themselves a slice, using a pizza cutter which has already been used to cut the pepperoni pizzas.

On a basic level, there is now less pizza for the vegetarian and the Jewish person, because someone has taken a slice of their pizza and the other pizzas are not suitable for them. (Applying this analogy to toilets, when male people use female only toilets they are putting additional strain on women's facilities, when women are already underprovided for compared to men.) But on a more fundamental level, the pizza is no longer suitable for the two people it was intended for. The vegetarian might go ahead and eat the pizza anyway, despite not being thrilled about the fact that it has been contaminated with pepperoni. (The vegetarian in this analogy is a regular woman who will grit her teeth and use the women's toilets anyway, despite feeling uncomfortable about there being a trans woman in there.) But the Jewish person now cannot eat that pizza and will have to either go hungry, or go and source themselves some alternative food elsewhere. (The Jewish person in this analogy is the woman who needs single sex spaces, whether for religious reasons or due to past trauma, and will self exclude from women's spaces if they are not guaranteed to be single sex.)

So rights are in fact pie, and if we want to ensure that women are still getting their fair share of the pie, Gary who now identifies as Sally and doesn't want to eat the men's pie needs to get his own pie.

I also find it immensely frustrating when people say they don't want Gary to just put a dress on and use the women's toilets, but that "real" trans women have every right to do this. There is no way to distinguish between a "real" trans woman and Gary who is just wearing a dress. There is no purity test, no form of ID, no one checking genitals or gender recognition certificates on toilet doors. Either you say no males in women only spaces, regardless of what surgery they have had or whether they have a gender recognition certificate and really really believe they feel like women inside, or you have to let Gary who is just wearing a dress in.

You remind me a little of a close friend of mine who once said to me in a rather upset tone of voice, "I think everyone should be able to use the spaces where they feel safe and comfortable."

Where do women get to feel safe and comfortable?

Are we really supposed to feel safe and comfortable taking our clothes off next to the kind of people who march through the streets of Manchester carrying placards threatening violence against TERFs, or who deface the statue of Millicent Fawcett and throw bottles of their own piss all over the steps to the Equality and Human Rights Commission?

Am I being bigoted if I say I don't want those people in my rape crisis group?

What about the kind of trans identified men who fetishise periods and tampons?

Is it wrong for me not to want to risk encountering one of them at the sink when I'm washing blood off my hands after emptying my mooncup or (and this has happened to me twice) having a miscarriage?

I feel safest and most comfortable when I'm allowed to pee and get changed away from men, however they believe they identify. And I don't understand why any woman thinks my right to feel safe and comfortable is less important than that of a trans woman. Any trans woman. Even one of the nice ones.

Because if your position really is that in cases where the needs of a female woman and a male woman come into conflict, the needs of the male woman take priority, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and examine why you think that. I suspect the real reason why so many people think their needs should take priority is because we all know they are men and we have been socially conditioned from birth to prioritise men's needs above our own.

Edited

Well said. Any man who decides to walk into the ladies is transgressing and knows it. Helping them transgress is not cool.

terryleather · 15/05/2025 19:10

Rights are pie and for the last however long, Dave with lippy and a dress has been stuffing his face with the whole feckin lot.

snickersbarchild · 15/05/2025 19:09

I'd love to know what the objective test is for true trans....

Plus, it's against the law for males to be in female single sex spaces and vice versa so it doesn't bloody matter.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 19:07

RedToothBrush · 15/05/2025 17:10

How do we know which people are trans and which are not trans, without acknowledging sex?

Answers on a postcard.

How can a trans person know if they are really trans or not considering the concept of biological sex is a nebulous dog whistle and ever so complicated….oh and on a spectrum.

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 19:01

This reply has been deleted

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MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 18:57

BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 18:53

And are you going to be sure it’s a transman using the loo and not a man??

It's easier to tell the difference between a man and a trans man than it is to tell the difference between a man and a trans woman.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 18:54

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/05/2025 16:32

It's interesting that you've made the "rights are not pie" argument in a context where it is clear that rights are in fact pie.

The most obvious example of this is in a women's sporting category. Say it's a swim meet, there are 8 lanes in a swimming pool and Lia Thomas is in one of them. The swimming pool is a pie cut into 8 pieces, and because Lia Thomas got one of those pieces, there's a female swimmer out there who failed to qualify and didn't get a piece of pie.

The pie analogy is less obvious when it comes to female only spaces, but I think it still kind of works. Imagine that you are at a pizza party. One person is vegetarian and another is Jewish. A kosher pizza with no meat products has been provided for them. Someone else at the party who is not vegetarian or Jewish likes the look of that pizza so they cut themselves a slice, using a pizza cutter which has already been used to cut the pepperoni pizzas.

On a basic level, there is now less pizza for the vegetarian and the Jewish person, because someone has taken a slice of their pizza and the other pizzas are not suitable for them. (Applying this analogy to toilets, when male people use female only toilets they are putting additional strain on women's facilities, when women are already underprovided for compared to men.) But on a more fundamental level, the pizza is no longer suitable for the two people it was intended for. The vegetarian might go ahead and eat the pizza anyway, despite not being thrilled about the fact that it has been contaminated with pepperoni. (The vegetarian in this analogy is a regular woman who will grit her teeth and use the women's toilets anyway, despite feeling uncomfortable about there being a trans woman in there.) But the Jewish person now cannot eat that pizza and will have to either go hungry, or go and source themselves some alternative food elsewhere. (The Jewish person in this analogy is the woman who needs single sex spaces, whether for religious reasons or due to past trauma, and will self exclude from women's spaces if they are not guaranteed to be single sex.)

So rights are in fact pie, and if we want to ensure that women are still getting their fair share of the pie, Gary who now identifies as Sally and doesn't want to eat the men's pie needs to get his own pie.

I also find it immensely frustrating when people say they don't want Gary to just put a dress on and use the women's toilets, but that "real" trans women have every right to do this. There is no way to distinguish between a "real" trans woman and Gary who is just wearing a dress. There is no purity test, no form of ID, no one checking genitals or gender recognition certificates on toilet doors. Either you say no males in women only spaces, regardless of what surgery they have had or whether they have a gender recognition certificate and really really believe they feel like women inside, or you have to let Gary who is just wearing a dress in.

You remind me a little of a close friend of mine who once said to me in a rather upset tone of voice, "I think everyone should be able to use the spaces where they feel safe and comfortable."

Where do women get to feel safe and comfortable?

Are we really supposed to feel safe and comfortable taking our clothes off next to the kind of people who march through the streets of Manchester carrying placards threatening violence against TERFs, or who deface the statue of Millicent Fawcett and throw bottles of their own piss all over the steps to the Equality and Human Rights Commission?

Am I being bigoted if I say I don't want those people in my rape crisis group?

What about the kind of trans identified men who fetishise periods and tampons?

Is it wrong for me not to want to risk encountering one of them at the sink when I'm washing blood off my hands after emptying my mooncup or (and this has happened to me twice) having a miscarriage?

I feel safest and most comfortable when I'm allowed to pee and get changed away from men, however they believe they identify. And I don't understand why any woman thinks my right to feel safe and comfortable is less important than that of a trans woman. Any trans woman. Even one of the nice ones.

Because if your position really is that in cases where the needs of a female woman and a male woman come into conflict, the needs of the male woman take priority, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and examine why you think that. I suspect the real reason why so many people think their needs should take priority is because we all know they are men and we have been socially conditioned from birth to prioritise men's needs above our own.

Edited

🙇‍♀️ 🙇 🙇‍♀️

How anyone can argue that some rights are not a pie when the rights that we are discussing are our single SEX rights. Allowing some males access means we have lost our single sex space entirely.

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 18:54

BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 18:53

And are you going to be sure it’s a transman using the loo and not a man??

Eyes. We can see.

LesserCelandine · 15/05/2025 18:53

Sure if Gary the builder buys a frock on and calls himself Sally, I don’t want to be in the toilet with him. But that’s not a trans woman. That’s Gary being a creepy dude.

What about this guy who declared he was using women’s toilets?

SC-Fuelled Bathroom Aggression
BlueTitShark · 15/05/2025 18:53

And are you going to be sure it’s a transman using the loo and not a man??

illinivich · 15/05/2025 18:45

How are you going to determine who is a Gary and who is a TW @Frazzled83? Given you dont want gary to use womans toilets, but you'll activity ensure TW can.

SternJoyousBee · 15/05/2025 18:39

Frazzled83 · 15/05/2025 14:24

It’s really interesting reading these responses to an article that I think was compassionate and measured. I didn’t see any ageism there. I’m only in my 40s and I’m WELL aware I’m not as in sync with youth culture because I’m getting to be a bit of an old fart. The same as I realise me and my octogenarian relatives are probably not going to see eye to eye on somethings. That’s not me being ageist, that’s an acknowledgement of how culture and ideas change over time.

I’m definitely not a trans activist and I think having clarity in law about the definition of a woman is helpful. I think the bit people seem to have forgotten is that rights are not pie and it’s not ‘you’ have them or ‘we’ have them. Protecting natal born women’s rights doesn’t make being trans any less of a protected characteristic. Sure if Gary the builder buys a frock on and calls himself Sally, I don’t want to be in the toilet with him. But that’s not a trans woman. That’s Gary being a creepy dude. I think things had gone too far in terms of anyone can self identify as a woman and automatically have access to single sex spaces and we’ve seen a very small number of cases where men have exploited that. Men. Not trans women. Men. But I also know I’d do anything I could to protect a trans woman trying to have a wee in peace and being set upon by frothing TERFs. The reality is, we need more unisex spaces so people can have a choice. I also think the toilet fascination is weird. I don’t know what’s happening in the toilets you’re all frequenting, but I’m popping into a cubicle, locking the door and having a wee. I’m certainly not undressing or getting my bits out by the sinks. A busy public loo is a low risk environment. Rape centres, prisons, hospitals - all much more valid arguments and require careful thought, probably on a case by case basis. The ruling just means nobody has an automatic right to access single sex spaces, it’s not a call to arms to be a prick for the sake of it.

Transwomen are men. Whether they have surgical procedures or not they are males. Humans cannot change sex.

We cannot have single sex spaces and allow some men who we think are nice to join us. That space would no longer be single sex. Our needs are compromised by their wants.

Why do you believe that women should not have access to single sex provisions? Because if a transwoman is a woman for the purpose of toilets why not for prisons and rape crisis centres? It’s not coherent to say that a transwoman is a woman in the Equality Act for some purposes but not others. That makes no sense.

The focus on toilets is not from us. Toilets are being used as some sort of ‘gotcha’. Transwomen can use the men’s toilets.

Datun · 15/05/2025 18:14

I have to say, I'm absolutely bloody loving all the pushback on here.

Historic posters, new people, freshly minted terfs, the lot.

All with their arguments finely honed and all not giving a flying fuck about expressing them.

TRAs don't stand a fricking chance.

FlakyCritic · 15/05/2025 18:11

@Frazzled83 I missed this. Sure if Gary the builder buys a frock on and calls himself Sally, I don’t want to be in the toilet with him. But that’s not a trans woman.

Firstly, 92% of transwomen retain their penis and testicles. In other words, almost none get the op.

Secondly, how do you suggest we tell which male has had the op and who hasn't? We can't tell. Hence, why we need to keep all males out, not just allow the 8% in when we don't know and can't tell. Unless you have an idea of how we can tell who has had the op? ??

Lastly, it doesn't matter anyway as they retain male height and male strength, look male and are male. And don't have the lived experience of growing from a girl to a woman or the various sexist microaggressions and experiences the oppressed sex class have. A male is a male is a male. A denutted male dog is still a male dog. Same for humans. A male without his penis is still male in every other way and has absolutely nothing in common or lived experience with vulnerable girls and women, many of us rape survivors and domestic violence victims who will still recognise his male voice and body and feel trauma.