Helen Joyce finally makes it to Women's Hour today from 10am

I've replied to my wording about the tall and imposing thing just above.

And my major point really remains that remarks about a man being large/obviously manly opens up the argument about whether it's OK to let SOME men into women's spaces and most of them pass anyway and where do you draw the line etc etc.

OK, 'dig' is probably not the best word. I guess 'personal reference' would do it. It's best to keep things neutral and simple.

yeah well he likened "TERFs" to Oswald Moseley's blackshirts, among others, so stuff that.

Also isn't describing someone as "tall and imposing" more likely to be seen as a compliment?

And c) because leaving them unsupervised is inherently unsafe. They could wander off and go outside and walk into traffic/fall down stairs/climb on something and hurt themselves. Never mind the risk they’d be at from other people.

Indeed.

No-one here has ever said they are all manipulative rapists.

I take it from that you have no understanding of the basis of safeguarding and how it works.

The toilets habits of men claiming to be women who have entered women toilets are truly appalling, I agree.

I'm still giggling at Helen's response: 'Yes, that was a good bit of legerdemain from Robin, wasn't it'

See my reply to this point above.

I don't think describing someone as tall and imposing is a dig. It's a factual statement

Great post @OvaHere . Beyond time for men to step up and say that all men are welcome in male spaces, however they present

I'm not denying that. It's just that any personal dig leaves her open to criticism. And opens up that stupid argument along the lines of 'what about trans men?/what about small trans women?' ie is it then OK to let SOME men into women's spaces and where do you draw the line.

Why not?

I think a point also ignored a lot is how the majority of men are not looking to start something in a communal toilet. My understanding is that they want to get in and out of there as fast as possible, eyes to the floor and no small talk especially where urinals are concerned.

In the vast majority of situations if encountering someone obviously male who stood out in some way (not necessarily just trans) I get the impression most men would do their utmost to 'not notice' and leave in a timely fashion.

The trans presenting males that do regularly use male toilets and post about it on SM seem to bear out this argument.

I acknowledge that anywhere where men congregate together there is always some risk of assault, even if small. However this is where men need to step up with campaigning and awareness raising. It's not a problem to be shoved on to women with a much higher degree of risk, harm and loss of privacy/dignity.

"and not think they are all manipulative rapists"

No one has said that on here. You see what you want to see.

oh no. "What about da menz?!"

just stop it. It is tedious. We have made it very clear several times that this is not about men and their feelings are (relatively) immaterial. We are talking about women. Women's rights.

Have you EVER, @marmaladeandpeanutbutter ever gone on a forum full of TRAs and asked them "what about da womenz?"

It isn't the "complying" or "obeying" that irritated me in that bit, it was the fact that the presenter said "complying with the law in the way that you [i.e. Helen] would want them to"

It isn't about whether Helen wants them to comply with the law! It's the fact that IT IS THE LAW.

This is shameful. How much power does RMW have? He got a thread deleted here yesterday and now he gets a grovelling apology from the BBC. Marginalised my arse.

x.com/JournalistJill/status/1922617022598279382?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

@peregina,I think the whole debate has become more toxic, not less. Yes, people should have some empathy for trans women and not think they are all manipulative rapists. I say that as someone who agrees with the supreme court outcome. I’ve read some vile shit on here, including, can you believe, about their toilet habits. Ffs. How to win with dignity, I don’t think.

one thing that struck me in the interview was that the host said something about organisations "not complying with the law the way you'd like them to". It was a question i think (I really could do with a transcript, I'm rubbish at remembering things.

what is "not complying with the law"? that would be "not obeying the law". It is a stupid fatuous thing to say.

It's ridiculous. The main reasons mothers take infant boys into female toilets are

a) because they still need help with aspects of toileting and hygiene

b) safeguarding from adult men (though admittedly this cut off is a grey area because boys over 7 are still vulnerable so IME it's a risk that has to be managed carefully by their adult carers for a few years)

If RMW is suggesting there are adult men who fall under a) then clearly we are talking about disabled men who will have at least one carer with them. In that situation they are catered for with accessible toilets for disabled people.

Point b) is a non starter unless you are arguing that every type of man with a vulnerability should be able to use the female facilities - old, gay, teenage etc.

If anyone does want to argue this then they need to explain how if adult men are not safe with other adult men this magically makes it safe for women and girls (arguably more vulnerable than any man) to share spaces with men.

Nope!

And I think this point is missed a LOT in the arguments.

TW in men's loos are far more physically able to defend themselves against an attack (if it came) by another man.

Women in women's loos are not going to be able to defend themselves against an attack from a man (TW or otherwise).

😁

Yes there was too long a gap which is very noticeable on the radio where she was clearly lost for words.

I heard her voice go dry at the start. A sure sign of fear.

Yes, this was brought up by a caller at the end of the programme.....that she had 'misgendered' Robin.