An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them.

Ah thanks. Hopefully it won't get that far anyway OP says.

@Manderleyagain the OP has stated that the local branch do run a few activities that he would genuinely like to join in with, but cannot because he is a male-person-that-believes-in-the-reality-of-his-own-body rather than a male-person-who-believes-he-has-a-feminine-soul. This is discriminatory and detrimental.

Good luck, and I hope it nudges them to change their policy. Hopefully it will make then really consider the legal arguments they would rely on to defend it, and realise they all fall apart.

I do think there's a chance that if it got to court your husband would not win though. Sorry to be a downer! He would be claiming that the WI has caused him a detriment - but as he wouldn't actually want to join a WI branch I think that detriment would fizzle out in court, or before. But hopefully it forces them to consider how they would defend a decision to turn down another man who genuinely wants to join.

I agree that their current criteria are totally irrational.

I think it's more likely that they will reframe their criteria to be something like "Anyone of any sex or gender can join, but we will always have our activities and actions chosen as things that are more likely to be of interest to people with a feminine gender identity - you certainly don't need a biologically female body to join!" Which will make the transwomen feel they are still getting the validation they want from the happy support-human handmaidens, and will hopefully be off-putting to most men, with a few notable exceptions such as OP's DH. It's more likely for them to swing that way than to reassert the boundaries of reality and become an actually single-sex organisation by expelling the males who have already been allowed to join.

Thanks to you and your DH for doing this, @Another2Cats ! Out of interest I just went to check the Scottish Women's Institute page, which turns out to have an EDI policy that currently makes plain that trans identifying males are allowed to join, but has a banner at the top of the policy saying they're reviewing it in the light of the SC judgement. Apart from what's in that policy it all looks very woman-y, based on a quick browse. I might join, if they sort their EDI policy so that it really is for women. (Never thought I'd be one to contemplate joining a WI but I guess it goes to show that we can change...)

@Another2Cats excelwnt update great to hear. Just like my own activist area getting my daughters secondary school to have single sec changing rooms , we’re not doing it to be trouble, we’re doing it to change things for the better huge good luck to you both.

OP
You and your husband are great.
this doesnt make me unconfortable it makes me happy.

This whole thing is giving me Ruth ginsberg "on the basis of sex" vibes.

I saw a Instagram video of a guy who was a female advocate joining the abortion rallies and he was shouting "we hate women. We dont trust women to make decisions. We should decide what happens to womens bodies" and it was making all the men around him super uncomfortable.
IMO we need more men doing this, not less.

I will be following this and hope you get somewhere.
In terms of support if this escalates it might be worth reaching out to someone like Glinner to see if he can help connect you with anyone

I think you and your husband are amazing OP. Keep us posted about the garden xxx

While they may have reached for the word salad bowl, at least they tried - none of the other firms would comment.

This would loosely match what we see on FWR when asked a very simple specific question. Eg "when you, yourself, use the word "female", what do you mean? "

Around 3/4 simply ignore the question and the rest say things that don't answer it.

This is interesting and helps Team Cats to build a picture of what they're potentially/likely up against.

From the text:

However, none of the firms was willing to tell RollOnFriday how their opposition was manifesting itself in the light of the For Women Scotland judgment, or what prompted their interpretation of the Equality Act.

As if the silence wasn't telling enough, two firms did offer statements by evidently reframing the question. Each statement was about them being committed to being inclusive employers - no comment whatsoever on whether their advice to their clients would change.

The criticism of their statements is fantastic:

While they may have reached for the word salad bowl, at least they tried - none of the other firms would comment.

Would it be cynical of me to think that all of these firms are prioritising how best to double down on their current position rather than how to follow the law?

Thinking ahead, if the WI follows legal advice that later gets proven to be unlawful.... because the WI loses its case against Team Cats in court..... does this mean they would either need to accept it on the chin or take their law firm to court for providing unlawful advice? It's one thing if Stonewall is caught providing duff advice about the law but they've always had the option to say that it shouldn't be relied upon as legal advice. These law firms don't have that option, so exposing one in court exposes them all and this could prove to be a highly significant case.

Well done, OP (and your amazing husband!). Also very happy to do some gardening.

Girlguiding has not changed its policy in light of the SC judgment, but it would be very hard to convince a teenage boy to do what your DH is doing. When he is proved correct in law (which he will be!), orgs like GG will be forced to take notice.

Thank you!

I’m happy to garden or, since it’s the WI, contribute some jars of jam.

I really don't want to derail the thread but as we're talking about law firms, this is interesting. It refers to a letter from 2020 by 8 captured firms. The ROF commentary is interesting, asking for impact on legal workspaces www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/exclusive-law-firms-accused-sending-legally-illiterate-trans-letter-prime-minister

I'm a WI member and would also be happy to garden. Thank you @Another2Cats

Happy to garden, too. It’s a new budget month!

You and DH are absolute stars @Another2Cats ! Best of luck - truth and the law are on your side and I am happy to join any gardening parties if required.

Ditto on all counts.

Good luck Mrs & Mr Cat.

yup Im ready to garden... do call on us... we are ready to dig deep if needed - whether for legal guidance, or full representation. Sex Matters are likely to be great at giving you some initial advice, and you've probably noticed they are setting up a register of interested lawyers.

You are doing so brilliantly Mr and Mrs Cat - deeply grateful to you for doing this so clearly and by the book.

It's going to be an interesting one to watch - and I suspect would be of great interest to the Times/Telegraph once you get a stage further!!

Also as someone pointed out on another thread, if JKR’s fund is funding some cases brought by women it will free up the rest of us to help men who need gardening.
I’m thinking of the Brighton school Dad who is prepared to go the whole way if necessary, as well as this potential WI case

Great work @Another2Cats ! Thanks for the updates 💪💪💪💪

I'd suggest you still apply to JKR's fund. Yes you may get back a polite refusal - but it may still get drawn to JKR's attention and as a private individual she could also choose to fund cases by males if she wished.v

I do garden for males and would consider a bit of flower arranging.

The guidance will never be 'clear' enough, it's not an incapacity to understand, it's a refusal to respect a law that is not agreed with. In this case, women having rights.

It is unfortunately going to take people taking this to court before all this endless excuses and waiting is forced to get in the bin. The plus side is that it should involve large payouts.

Well done OP and DH.

I know Bates Wells well, and guessed it would be them. I use them in a professional capacity and a personal volunteering capacity, so I’ve kept an eye on their output around this. My feeling is that they’re pretty captured (pronouns in email and a few other clues from reading their regular mailing list briefings)

Well they're very stupid.