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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them.

966 replies

Another2Cats · 12/05/2025 19:49

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the SC ruling anytime soon.

I was reading the thread at the time and, entirely jokingly, I suggested to my DH that he should apply to join the WI and see what they say.

So he did just that (he totally gets the GC point of view) and I posted about this at the time:

Another2Cats · 08/05/2025 19:45

I just got my DH to send an email to them:

Hello,

My name is Xxxx (very obviously masculine name). I just read your transgender policy and understand that you accept men.

I am a man and would like to join the local WI group in [xxxx city] (the nearest branch for me is in yyyy [suburb of xxxx city]).

Should I just turn up next Wednesday evening and sign up?

I'm really waiting with bated breath to see what sort of response there is.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330297-womens-institute-announcement?reply=144143149
.

Well, it turns out that they sent a response this lunchtime.

This is their reply (although with contact details redacted):

Good morning,

Thank you for your enquiry. Our policy states that “WI membership is open to all women who live as women, including transgender women.” If you fit within this statement, you will be more than welcome to attend. I am afraid the WI is not open to men.

Kind regards,

[Redacted]

[Name Redacted]
Federation Secretary
[Two cities - well, a city and a town - redacted] Federation of WIs CIO
[Address redacted]
[Telephone number redacted]
Office hours: Tues, Weds, Thurs 9am – 1pm

Please note the new email address – [Redacted]
.

I don't know, is this something that DH should take up with the EHRC now that he has it in writing?

Women’s institute announcement | Mumsnet

Published earlier today.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330297-womens-institute-announcement

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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WomensInstituteDeclaration · 28/06/2025 13:20

Thank you so much, this is an amazing update, we knew they would be doubling down, but it's great to see the actual defence that they're coming up with.
Their legal firm represent the Girl Guides as well. so interesting and what a massive waste of members' money - frankly it's disgusting.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 13:18

I agree again that many men who claim to be trans are deeply vulnerable and disadvantaged. Take Sarah Jane Baker. Undoubtedly had a traumatic childhood. Difficult time in prison. Is marginalised and probably extremely disadvantaged and probably discriminated against for various reasons, not least due to his evident mental health issues.

This does not mean that women should lose their single space group to help make him feel better.

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 13:17

SternJoyousBee · 28/06/2025 11:59

Or elderly men? Or homeless men?

or…no stay with me here, I know this may be an unorthodox concept, but did they ever think of creating a special scheme to support disadvantaged women, perhaps those who may need single sex spaces?

You would think providing an inclusive accessible space for these disadvantaged groups within the sex class they claim to be providing for would be the first concern.

But again: meet the very special marital partner.

Its always ALL about the men.

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 13:15

Completely agree. It is not innocent 'sadness' that requires Mummy to provide kisses and soothing.

It's a whole lot uglier than that. Although it's not naice to point this very obvious bit out, nor all the court cases and issues that women have managed to get into the press and the public eye.

It is very often sexual. And it is tediously always deeply misogyist.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 13:11

Added to that, we know some rich men find the distress of peasant women exciting. Fetishise it.

Added to that, we're not allowed to mention their excitement.

Layer upon fucking layer of indignity and control piled on women in the interests of male support, being kind to males, being understanding, pretending not to notice the males who are openly getting off, not saying the wrong words, knowing that some men delight SPECIFICALLY in this control and subjugation of women.

Fucksake.

MyPresumablyScrotum · 28/06/2025 13:11

IANAL but what a load of utter bollocks.

The WI was set up for women. Not for "disadvantaged" men to be supported by those women.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 13:07

cheesecakewrestler · 28/06/2025 12:54

As is often said - women are not a support group for TIMs.

It's suggesting that women should lose their rights in order to give men more support. Highly fucking offensive given that women were afforded those rights on the basis of being the disadvantaged sex. By men.

It's an appeal to women to please not make men sad by excluding them. And given that it appeals to the vastly sexist underpinning sentiment of society, stands a fair chance of being met with agreement by all those who believe that women must place the wellbeing of men over that of their own. Which is a fair few.

Men were made so terriby sad at being excluded from the disadvantaged group they must now be pandered to, like a millionaire being sad at being excluded from the workhouse must now be admitted, and peasant women forced to express compassion at their pretend straitened circumstances (it's lonely at the top), so the rich man can play make believe and indulge his own fantasies of subjugation, lest those peasants be condemned for their callous bigotry against the rich. Its an absurd grotesquery.

zenai · 28/06/2025 13:06

Would the JKR legal fund be relevant here I wonder?

FarriersGirl · 28/06/2025 13:06

Best option for the OP and for women: to face down the WI in court with expert representation.

This is spot on. Like many others I would happily garden for this. The debate on this thread is fascinating.

MyAmpleSheep · 28/06/2025 13:02

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 12:56

Re representation: I've been told (by a lawyer) that courts sometimes look more favourably on people bringing a case on their own without representation. Not sure that it woild be wise in this case, just a thought, though.

In a case where the law is clear and the facts are contested? Sure.

In a case defended on the interpretation of a rarely-used part of a two hundred page act of Parliament whose last serious question went all the way to the Supreme Court? Couldn't disagree more.

Judges are professional barristers and expect need other professional barristers on both sides to help them form the correct understanding of how the law is to be applied, by making skilled argument in reference to prior cases and laws.

MyAmpleSheep · 28/06/2025 12:57

SternJoyousBee · 28/06/2025 11:53

I agree. I think they hoped to baffle your DH’s brains with their bullshit.

Best option for the WI: the OP backs down

Best option for the WI's lawyers: the OP continues, and they face off in court unrepresented. That way the lawyers get a fat fee and a victory for the client, or more fat fees on appeal. The lawyers don't really care who wins the case.

Best option for the OP and for women: to face down the WI in court with expert representation.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 12:56

Re representation: I've been told (by a lawyer) that courts sometimes look more favourably on people bringing a case on their own without representation. Not sure that it woild be wise in this case, just a thought, though.

illinivich · 28/06/2025 12:55

What has happened is that legal departments have allowed inclusivity departments to write the protected characteristics to include gender, either alongside sex or to replace it completely.

The same departments are now spending their energy pretending its complex rather than admitting that they fucked up in the first place. And are going to spend a lot of their employers money in the process.

cheesecakewrestler · 28/06/2025 12:54

As is often said - women are not a support group for TIMs.

ArabellaScott · 28/06/2025 12:53

TheOtherRaven · 28/06/2025 10:48

So their case is basically it's ok to cause detriment to women and remove the purpose of the group for them, because these men matter more.

I don't think it'll stand up.

Women must lose their own women only clubs because some special men are so sad.

Its not reasonable, imo.

borntobequiet · 28/06/2025 12:52

BettyBooper · 28/06/2025 11:07

I don't think they really think they have a case. If they did they wouldn't be pulling out the big guns already and contacting your DH by phone. They're testing the water to see if they can get him to back down...

If their argument was correct there it would completely undermine any and all lawful discrimination in the EA and remove the very safeguards it intends. Surely?

This. It sounds very strange.

WithSilverBells · 28/06/2025 12:51

AnnaFrith · 28/06/2025 12:45

Thank you for doing this, and please please see it through.
But I agree with posters above, this is too important for you to try to do it yourselves. Please get proper legal representation.

Yes, I would strongly agree with this. Equality Law is complex and it is very important to your sanity and to the cause of women's rights in general that any case is represented by specialist lawyers who agree that there is a realistic prospect of winning. We will all happily crowdfund for that.

potpourree · 28/06/2025 12:48

This law firm is licking its lips at having amateur you as its opponent in this important case. The WI has deep pockets and it could be you two up against a leading silk + junior in the court of appeal. And if you lose there, that's a precedent set for every single sex association.

I completely agree OP

potpourree · 28/06/2025 12:47

Thinking about it, surely the 'positive acts' taken by employers are for sub-groups of people who would already be expected to be part of the organisation? e.g. an employer who hasn't got many disabled people might encourage help etc for them, because they would expect to see X% of people in the org be disabled (or other PC).

Whereas a WI by definition would not 'expect' to have any males in at all, so why take positive action to encourage a proportion of males? If anything I'd say they would be better off encouraging more female people who ID as not-women - they are female, would be expected to be in the WI and might have a PC of GR or be non-binary, etc.

AnnaFrith · 28/06/2025 12:45

Thank you for doing this, and please please see it through.
But I agree with posters above, this is too important for you to try to do it yourselves. Please get proper legal representation.

minxymix · 28/06/2025 12:44

12.1.1 The Equality Act 2010 (the Act) permits associations, other than political parties, to restrict their membership to persons who share a protected characteristic (Sch. 16). The only exception is that membership can never be restricted based on colour (Sch. 16 paragraph 1(4)).
Example
12.1.3 A trans woman applies to join a women-only association and her application is refused. This would be lawful because membership is based on sex and restricted to women and, under the Act, she does not share that protected characteristic

The WI does not need to demonstrate a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Section 193 of the EA allows for restriction of benefits to persons who share a protected characteristic if the person acts in persuance of a charitable instrument. See WI charitable objects.

FWS judgement para 229 - 231.
(iv) Single characteristic associations and charities 229. Similarly, Schedule 16 paragraph 1 EA 2010 allows for an association to restrict membership to persons who share a protected characteristic (which would otherwise be unlawful discrimination in contravention of section 101(1)(b)). However, if sex means certificated sex, this exception from the sex discrimination provisions for single characteristic associations would not permit such associations with 25 members or more (see section 107(2) of the EA 2010 discussed above) to be limited to biological women. This is because, as we have said, a certificated sex definition of the protected characteristic of sex would include trans women with a GRC. 230. Nor would single-sex charities be able to use the exception in section 193, which allows them to restrict the provision of benefits to persons who share a protected characteristic in pursuance of a charitable instrument. So far as material, section 193 provides: “(1) A person does not contravene this Act only by restricting the provision of benefits to persons who share a protected characteristic if— (a) the person acts in pursuance of a charitable instrument, and (b) the provision of the benefits is within subsection (2). (2) The provision of benefits is within this subsection if it is— (a) a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, or (b) for the purpose of preventing or compensating for a disadvantage linked to the protected characteristic.” 231. Schedule 16 and section 193(1) plainly intend that single-sex associations and charities should be permitted to exist along with other single-characteristic associations. A certificated sex meaning applied to these exceptions would make it impossible for any women’s association or charity – including, for example, a mutual support association for women who are victims of male sexual violence, a lesbian social association, a breast feeding support charity – to be set up or to pursue a dedicated purpose which is directed at the needs of biological females. To require such associations or charities to reconceive of their objects as targeting a group that does not correspond with their original aims, and to allow trans people with a GRC (of the opposite biological sex) to join would significantly undermine the right to associate on the basis of biological sex (or sexual orientation based on biological sex as we have discussed above). Page 71

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 28/06/2025 12:43

Marmaladelover · 28/06/2025 12:31

OP I concur with this . FSU offered support before - I would take them up on it if the offer is still there!

I guarantee that NC or any of her learned friends would absolutely jump at an opportunity to take this to court.

And gardening will be plentiful, I am also sure.

illinivich · 28/06/2025 12:42

There's no definition of gender, so they cant have what they want - open to all women and men who want to be women.

Ultimately, if the WI want to prioritise men, they will just have to be honest and change their policy to be open to everyone. And just hope few men actually join and upset the TIMs.

I'd be more likely to spend more than a few seconds think about the disadvantage idea if other groups were pressure to include TIMs in the same way. Where are the disability and TIM sports groups?

BasilParsley · 28/06/2025 12:41

So, if a TW is accepted with open arms into the WI (or any other allegedly single-sex organisation) and then says one day - actually, I'm not sure, sometimes I feel I am woman, sometimes I feel I am a man. Would they only be allowed in on the days they felt like a woman?