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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An update to the WI Announcement thread. My DH just got a reply to his application to join them.

966 replies

Another2Cats · 12/05/2025 19:49

This is not a thread about a thread, but recently there was a thread about the Womens Institute announcement that they would not be implementing the SC ruling anytime soon.

I was reading the thread at the time and, entirely jokingly, I suggested to my DH that he should apply to join the WI and see what they say.

So he did just that (he totally gets the GC point of view) and I posted about this at the time:

Another2Cats · 08/05/2025 19:45

I just got my DH to send an email to them:

Hello,

My name is Xxxx (very obviously masculine name). I just read your transgender policy and understand that you accept men.

I am a man and would like to join the local WI group in [xxxx city] (the nearest branch for me is in yyyy [suburb of xxxx city]).

Should I just turn up next Wednesday evening and sign up?

I'm really waiting with bated breath to see what sort of response there is.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330297-womens-institute-announcement?reply=144143149
.

Well, it turns out that they sent a response this lunchtime.

This is their reply (although with contact details redacted):

Good morning,

Thank you for your enquiry. Our policy states that “WI membership is open to all women who live as women, including transgender women.” If you fit within this statement, you will be more than welcome to attend. I am afraid the WI is not open to men.

Kind regards,

[Redacted]

[Name Redacted]
Federation Secretary
[Two cities - well, a city and a town - redacted] Federation of WIs CIO
[Address redacted]
[Telephone number redacted]
Office hours: Tues, Weds, Thurs 9am – 1pm

Please note the new email address – [Redacted]
.

I don't know, is this something that DH should take up with the EHRC now that he has it in writing?

Women’s institute announcement | Mumsnet

Published earlier today.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330297-womens-institute-announcement

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
MassiveWordSalad · 29/06/2025 14:02

I’m pondering if we have to start over again. Do we need to set up new women’s organisations now, post SC judgement, that can begin as single-sex organisations and stay that way? If the WI is still so wedded to letting in men and so desperate to let them stay that they will waste all this time and money, do they deserve us?

I would love to attend a women’s single sex group that is truly feminist and offers a variety of events. Maybe I should think about starting something locally, but would it just act as a magnet for trans rights activists?

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 13:56

Gundogday · 29/06/2025 11:39

Surely they’re on shaky ground with their ‘living as a woman’ criteria. What does this even mean and what criteria do they abide by? Do you have to wear lipstick, pink etc, and for how long? All day? If the trans only ‘presents’ as female at weekends, are they trans because five out of seven days they’re ‘male’? Can a trans plumber apply, because a plumber is a ‘male’ occupation? Etc etc

good point about the occupation and dress - many women wouldn’t meet that criteria

WithSilverBells · 29/06/2025 13:52

Sadly starting to think the WI has had its day

That is what the WI is terrified of and that is why it has been performatively signalling to the yoof that it is of relevance to them. Same as BBC, IOC, Churches, Political Parties, retailers, banks etc etc. A trans invested person at the top who persuades management that #BeKind is not only OTRSOH but will also pull in the younger punters.

This will not die until we get it out of the schools.

SidewaysOtter · 29/06/2025 13:43

That is an excellent point, @TheOtherRaven

Is really like to think that the WI was about support for women - both in terms of their domestic lives (anything that makes things easier, money go further etc) but also about supporting women themselves, giving opportunities for education, and an opportunity to socialise with other women, particularly at times when a woman’s life was largely in her home.

These says they just seem to be yet another vehicle for trans identifying men to get their validation. It’s like the members are being offered up.

Seriestwo · 29/06/2025 13:38

“Who was the jam for?” Is a great question

ArabellaScott · 29/06/2025 13:15

MyAmpleSheep · 29/06/2025 12:42

If you wanted a more blatant example of women throwing themselves under the bus as support animals to men, you couldn't find one. The suggestion that the Women's Institute, of all things, sacrifices its very core purpose of being for women to provide positive action to boost a self-selecting group of men is beyond absurd. It's actually farcical.

100%. It's a staggering act of performative self harm.

TheOtherRaven · 29/06/2025 12:57

It's making me think differently about the WI. I always saw it as an escape for women, education and empowerment, community. A positive thing as a resource that was for women. And now I'm thinking yes but who was all the jam for in the first place? It's about being good wives and good mothers isn't it? It's about women's value being not in who they are, or what they do, but what they give to others. And then this starts to make sense.

Except as usual it then gets even more ludicrous because it's so obvious who has to do the giving, and who gets to be the special guest star who is in receipt of nurture and services. And you can call both groups 'women' all you like, but you can split the givers and the takers on an obvious, binary sexed basis.

Sadly starting to think the WI has had its day.

MyAmpleSheep · 29/06/2025 12:42

If you wanted a more blatant example of women throwing themselves under the bus as support animals to men, you couldn't find one. The suggestion that the Women's Institute, of all things, sacrifices its very core purpose of being for women to provide positive action to boost a self-selecting group of men is beyond absurd. It's actually farcical.

StellaAndCrow · 29/06/2025 12:28

AmateurNoun · 28/06/2025 22:04

I'm not sure if the picture I am attaching will show straight away, but there is reference here https://www.thewi.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/719730/NFWI-Equality,-Diversity-and-Inclusion-Policy.pdf in the section on non binary to the WI applying a "women only exemption".

Presumably this is a reference to the single sex exemption in Sched 3 to the Equality Act.

And yet now, if I am understanding correctly, they don't think that the single sex exemption applies (because the FWS means that they would have to exclude transwomen to rely on this) and are attempting to rely on positive action under s158 despite probably not having collected evidence and undertaken the relevant proportionality assessment at the time 🤔

That part of their policy is very confusing, and, I assumed, based on confused thinking. They clearly state that they are using "our woman only exemption".

But I don't understand how they are relating that to including transwomen. Other than that they seem to be saying they might not know that they are transwomen?

ArabellaScott · 29/06/2025 12:12

Datun · 29/06/2025 09:29

Obviously the issue is blurred by the whole TWAW mindset, though.

It's so weird. The disadvantage can't be because they're women. It has to be because they're trans, in which case it's because they're men.

Because it's got nothing to do with actually being trans, as women who are trans aren't welcome!

edited to add and the argument that transwomen are more disadvantaged than transmen would fall apart in a heartbeat.

Edited

Why women should lose protection/privacy from all men because some men are unhappy about some other men is the head scratcher.

They need to go and talk to other men about the issues and stop heckling women just because we're refusing to let them in.

Plus women who want a mixed sex org for women and sad men should set up their own thing. That's not what the WI is for.

Another2Cats · 29/06/2025 12:06

BundleBoogie · 29/06/2025 11:42

They’re going to have trouble proving that their cover star ‘Petra’ has suffered any significant disadvantages in life. Ditto Sue Pascoe, Robin Moira White and all the other post successful career men who have declared their laydee-ness.

Are the WI quite so bothered about disadvantaged women I wonder?

Their defence has the robustness of a jelly.

Well done to you and DH for keeping going with this.

"They’re going to have trouble proving that their cover star ‘Petra’ has suffered any significant disadvantages in life. Ditto Sue Pascoe, Robin Moira White and all the other post successful career men who have declared their laydee-ness."

Unfortunately (in this situation), it's not done on an individual level but on a group level.

It's all about the group, rather than the individual, disadvantages, needs or lack of participation.

Positive action is supposed to address patterns of inequality rather than individual cases. So, there is no point comparing the most successful TIM against the least successful man who isn't.

Going back again to that case I linked to, the court very much said just this:

[80] Positive action pursuant to section 158 has to address needs or disadvantages experienced in connection with a protected characteristic, and so contemplates that a group-based approach may be adopted, defined by reference to one of the protected characteristics as shared with others (such as gender, disability or religion) ... Accordingly, Parliament contemplated that the proportionality of measures falling within section 158 and section 193 should be assessed on a group basis, by comparing the advantages for groups covered by the measure in question with the disadvantages for groups falling outside it.

[81] This point is reinforced by the guidance on the question of proportionality under section 158 of the 2010 Act contained in the EHRC code of practice at para 10.22:

“The seriousness of the relevant disadvantage, the degree to which the need is different and the extent of the low participation in the particular activity will need to be balanced against the impact of the action on other protected groups, and the relative disadvantage, need or participation of these groups.”

[82] In this context, the proportionality assessment would be distorted by simply taking the worst affected individual who is not covered by the measure and comparing her with the most favourably affected individual who is covered by it.

OP posts:
BundleBoogie · 29/06/2025 11:56

I don’t know if posted earlier but here is a blog about a presentation from the totally not disadvantaged ’Petra’, merrily (and presumably being paid) to spread utter lies and nonsense up and down the country.

https://the-lies-they-tell.org/2021/07/31/have-you-never-met-a-trans-woman-before/

And I hadn’t realised that they allowed that violent (against women) male criminal ‘Miss Gripper’ to join, or the paedophile supporter dude. I bet those branches have lost membership pretty quickly.

I hope the WI lawyers are reading this thread and realising that their defence is one of the most pathetic reaches in history. I realise that it’s their job but it’s also their job to advise their client that they haven’t got a hope in hell.

Unbelievable!!

Have you never met a trans woman before?

Petra, you will recall recently shot to fame when he was made cover girl of WI life, has been busy up and down the Women’s Institute network conducting his own unique training programme for t…

https://the-lies-they-tell.org/2021/07/31/have-you-never-met-a-trans-woman-before/

BundleBoogie · 29/06/2025 11:42

Another2Cats · 29/06/2025 08:42

"Please tell me I’ve misunderstood?!"

Yes, slightly.

The detriment that they are seeking to overcome is not caused by lack of membership of the WI but just general disadvantage that TIM suffer in general life.

They say that by the WI offering them things like help with leadership skills, mentoring, confidence building etc then this is closely connected with helping TIM overcome the disadvantages that they suffer in life. Or so they say.

In the case I mentioned above with the Haredi Jews, the court said that Haredi Jews in particular (partly due to their appearance) are subject to racially aggravated harassment etc and also prejudice when trying to rent properties in the private sector.

They also have a need for larger houses because they typically have very large families.

So, it was ok for the Housing Association to discriminate under S158 as the provision of larger homes to Haredi Jews was closely connected with overcoming the disadvantages and particular needs they had.
.

In contrast, what the WI can offer TIM to help them overcome any disadvantages they faced I am not entirely clear.

They’re going to have trouble proving that their cover star ‘Petra’ has suffered any significant disadvantages in life. Ditto Sue Pascoe, Robin Moira White and all the other post successful career men who have declared their laydee-ness.

Are the WI quite so bothered about disadvantaged women I wonder?

Their defence has the robustness of a jelly.

Well done to you and DH for keeping going with this.

zenai · 29/06/2025 11:39

The WI is not just for women, but it doesn't admit men or transmen. Legal or not, that is the question.

Is that the nub of the issue really?

Gundogday · 29/06/2025 11:39

Surely they’re on shaky ground with their ‘living as a woman’ criteria. What does this even mean and what criteria do they abide by? Do you have to wear lipstick, pink etc, and for how long? All day? If the trans only ‘presents’ as female at weekends, are they trans because five out of seven days they’re ‘male’? Can a trans plumber apply, because a plumber is a ‘male’ occupation? Etc etc

CassOle · 29/06/2025 11:38

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 11:25

Good point - doesnt that undermine their claim that this is a special group for positive action? If they don’t know who they are how can they help?

Therefore, how can they monitor whether the 'positive action' is helping or not?

Datun · 29/06/2025 11:29

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 09:51

Exactly this!

ETA - if the WI do try this argument then requesting information on how many TIMs are on the local and national committees versus just being ordinary members might provide enlightening. I’d guess that there are very view who have a problem being assertive and getting nominated to authority positions…

Edited

It would be an absolute piece of piss to have a list of people who identified as trans, divided into leadership positions, and non-leadership positions, and watch it separate into male and female almost exclusively.

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 11:26

Manderleyagain · 29/06/2025 11:15

It's worth remembering (everyone, not OP particularly as I'm sure they are both well aware) that if this does get to court and there is any publicity the case will be reported as 'man who wants to join the WI', 'man who wants to turn the WI into a mixed sex organisation', ' man who doesn't want the WI to be for women only'. Whatever our hope about the organisation being forced to accept that it can't be both single sex and include some of the opposite sex, the legal point being made (if I've understood) is that a man is suffering sex discrimination. The resolution being sought (presumably) is that he will be admitted as a member. If the jkr fund gave money it would be 'jkr helps man join the WI', so I can understand why OP doesn't think the jkr fund is a goer.

I would chip in for legal representation to take the case further as I think the policy is currently illegal, but it will be difficult to spin it if it does go all the way.

I actually think on freedom of association grounds that an organisation should be allowed to be for women and trans people if they want (tho i think the law doesn't allow it at the mo) but the wi would have to change its constitution to do so, and then the discussion would have to be public.

Agree!

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 11:25

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 29/06/2025 10:54

Except that of course how would they possibly have that data? Because they won’t have recorded the TiMs as anything except women…

🙄

Good point - doesnt that undermine their claim that this is a special group for positive action? If they don’t know who they are how can they help?

Manderleyagain · 29/06/2025 11:18

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 29/06/2025 10:54

Except that of course how would they possibly have that data? Because they won’t have recorded the TiMs as anything except women…

🙄

Which will rather undermine their claim that it's all a positive acton programme.

Manderleyagain · 29/06/2025 11:15

It's worth remembering (everyone, not OP particularly as I'm sure they are both well aware) that if this does get to court and there is any publicity the case will be reported as 'man who wants to join the WI', 'man who wants to turn the WI into a mixed sex organisation', ' man who doesn't want the WI to be for women only'. Whatever our hope about the organisation being forced to accept that it can't be both single sex and include some of the opposite sex, the legal point being made (if I've understood) is that a man is suffering sex discrimination. The resolution being sought (presumably) is that he will be admitted as a member. If the jkr fund gave money it would be 'jkr helps man join the WI', so I can understand why OP doesn't think the jkr fund is a goer.

I would chip in for legal representation to take the case further as I think the policy is currently illegal, but it will be difficult to spin it if it does go all the way.

I actually think on freedom of association grounds that an organisation should be allowed to be for women and trans people if they want (tho i think the law doesn't allow it at the mo) but the wi would have to change its constitution to do so, and then the discussion would have to be public.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 29/06/2025 10:54

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 09:51

Exactly this!

ETA - if the WI do try this argument then requesting information on how many TIMs are on the local and national committees versus just being ordinary members might provide enlightening. I’d guess that there are very view who have a problem being assertive and getting nominated to authority positions…

Edited

Except that of course how would they possibly have that data? Because they won’t have recorded the TiMs as anything except women…

🙄

BundleBoogie · 29/06/2025 10:51

BettyBooper · 28/06/2025 11:12

So if the other group was not TIM but say, Jewish men, who were being allegedly disadvantaged, would their proportionate action to let them into the WI claim hold?

It would sound like a ridiculous argument.

Good point. I hear that young white boys from poor backgrounds are disadvantaged and need extra help - they’ll need to open up membership to them as well.

KnottyAuty · 29/06/2025 09:51

Datun · 29/06/2025 08:55

I have to say, if there wasn't so much at stake, I would be very interested in watching lawyers argue that men colonising women's spaces needed help with leadership skills and confidence boosting.

Exactly this!

ETA - if the WI do try this argument then requesting information on how many TIMs are on the local and national committees versus just being ordinary members might provide enlightening. I’d guess that there are very view who have a problem being assertive and getting nominated to authority positions…

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/06/2025 09:48

SidewaysOtter · 29/06/2025 09:24

To go with the example of the housing association, presumably their remit is to provide housing to all and that they prioritise certain groups within that “all” in order to correct an imbalance seems reasonable.

If they were a housing organisation that housed single people and they suddenly started prioritising families (of whatever religion etc.) then that would be outside their remit.

The latter scenario seems to be what’s going on here: an organisation set up for women is supporting a subset of men on the basis that there is an imbalance to correct, even though it’s outside their remit. Obviously the issue is blurred by the whole TWAW mindset, though.

This is my understanding too. Positive action can be used to provide some advantage to a subgroup of the people that the organisations always serves.

What the WI is doing isn't PA I don't think. They only serve women in their meetings, so could not use PA to encourage subsets of men to join meetings.

I have glanced through the housing case above and I don't think it supports their argument at all (again, IANAL). I know there are some people on MN who will make far less heave weather od the reading than me though Grin