BBC series I Kissed a Boy decision "homophobic in the extreme" - LGB Alliance

@WhatterySquash
Yes I would imagine there has been that conversation or would have been if it’s possible to be off camera - but then they will also have been picked for their self-declared genderwoo credentials I would imagine. So they may be in the same position as lots of people in workplaces and other groups where they can’t even bring it up as they don’t know who they could discuss it with safely

Yes I mean they have very possibly discussed Lars trans status privately off camera. My issue was that apart from Lars coming out, there has barely been a mention of her being trans during the rest of the series.
Of course, I could be wrong. But I doubt that it's because they all see her as an equal gay man, rather that this is what the show wanted the viewers to believe- that gay men don't see any difference, believe that TMAM and aren't in the least bit 'transphobic'.

The fact the trans issue has barely been mentioned has just felt like the huge elephant in the room to me, and the whole thing fake as hell.
Yes, it's a reality show, it's scripted. But it hasn't appeared in the slightest bit real.

As I noted earlier. There has only been one comment from one of the boys (Jordan something?) that hinted at an issue with Lars and Reuben. It wasn't stated outright but I doubt he was suggesting the incompatibility between them was only to do with looks or personality. But also the fact that Lars isn't an actual man.

I guess we will see if a future series of 'I kissed a girl' features a trans identifying male.

I really hope it doesn't, because I would fully expect it to show young lesbians happily accepting the 'some lesbians have penis' BS.

I think gay men are in a much stronger position to reject the 'some gay men have vaginas' line and not be coerced into accepting females in their dating pool, but young lesbians are in a much more vulnerable position.

There hasn't been a single discussion between the boys about the fact Lars is a biological female and how that fits into their gay male world. This would certainly be a topic of conversation in 'real life'.

Yes I would imagine there has been that conversation or would have been if it’s possible to be off camera - but then they will also have been picked for their self-declared genderwoo credentials I would imagine. So they may be in the same position as lots of people in workplaces and other groups where they can’t even bring it up as they don’t know who they could discuss it with safely. The whole setup is an exercise is shutting down/preventing anyone saying “but I’m same-sex attracted and that’s ok/should be respected”.

Is anyone still watching this? I binged the lot last night and there's just the final episode to go now.
(Un)Surprisingly Lars has made it to the end. The entire storyline has just seemed incredibly fake to me.
I mean Lars and Reuben? Reuben looks like a high fashion model or something next to tiny Lars who looks like a rather unremarkable teenage lad.
Lars has hardly been given any airtime. I think I've heard her speak maybe 10 times and nothing of substance since the original 'coming out'.
The main scenes of Lars have just been of her climbing over Reuben and making out on the sunbeds/sofas (almost as if to really hammer it home that gay men DO find tiny transmen incredibly hot and that Lars is a dominate top despite being half Reubens size )
There hasn't been a single discussion between the boys about the fact Lars is a biological female and how that fits into their gay male world. This would certainly be a topic of conversation in 'real life' .Only a bit of a jibe from a couple of them about not buying their relationship and not really working on the outside.
And I agree. I've never seen such an odd mismatched couple. Perhaps the guy Lars was originally paired seemed a slightly more believable pairing, but Reuben the Diva??
Something else I noticed is that most of the other guys, regardless of physique or dress, acted quite camp and effiminate at times. Go girlfriend! Oooh check her out! Come on girls! Etc whereas Lars was being as laddish in behaviour and appearance as possible. Because any camp behaviour might draw attention to the fact she's actually female?

Interestingly Lars does pass rather well from the waist up. But during the cowboy party where she was wearing tight shorts and a pink cowboy hat, she definitely looked female, especially from behind.

Only the final to go now and I doubt Reuben will confirm a relationship with Lars. If he does then it will confirm to me that the entire thing is a pile of steaming scripted horsecrap.

But yes, I have noted that thoughout the series ALL the guys have just appeared to accept Lars as a gay man just like them. But I have serious doubts this would ever happen in real life.
I mean they all seem like a bunch of nice caring lads, but they are gay, they like men. I just can't believe they'd feel the same about a woman, no matter if they have a moustache

It’s so ridiculous - obviously this is something the men need to know. If being trans meant you did actually change sex, or “were” the opposite sex in any way other than a fantasy inside your head, this wouldn’t be so important. The whole situation just emphasises that the trans man is not a man, hasn’t changed sex and is not gay. And that everyone else is supposed to entertain and be polite about something so completely unreasonable and insulting.

it’s massively disrespectful to the men but also really exposing and awkward for the TM.

They completely fluffed it - Lars immediately informed their match that they were trans. I assumed that this had been a condition of the show's producers to avoid the sex by deception problem. But as you quite rightly point out - it doesn't state anywhere that Lars' admission is not just a voluntary gesture in the spirit of transparency, but is actually a legal requirement... most viewers will be none the wiser. I think this should be made clearer - similar to a "don't try this at home" sort of disclaimer?

Does the programme do the public information service of making it clear to viewers that Lars has to tell the other man what sex Lars is before they have sexual contact otherwise this could be sex by deception and Lars could end up in court?

Nope

Or does the programme fluff about pretending it doesn't matter because trans?

Yes it fluffs about. Nobody gets the space to say they’re not comfortable with having someone who identifies as the opposite sex and identifies as a same sex attracted person on this dating show which is the first one specifically for gay men on UK TV. Lars is neither of those things and has taken the place of a gay man who could have been on IKAB instead. Why should gay men have to budge up like that?

Reiterating some of the previous comments, unlike sex, sexual attraction is a spectrum. Some men are bisexual and roughly equally attracted to men and women. Others are more attracted to men but still have had relationships with women, including sexual, that were enjoyable and that they didn't regret. But some (and arguably most) gay men are exclusively attracted to men. One of the reasons that some gay men, in closed company, are offensively emphatic about their disgust of female anatomy is the still prevalent societal expectation that one just hasn't found the right woman. That's not a justification for said attitude, we should all demand less misogyny from all men gay and straight, but it is important to understand it's source.

IMO the idea of TM being gay men is extremely damaging to women. It puts women at high risk on gay hookup apps which are inundated with 'gay' men only interested in trans men, obviously heterosexuals gaming the system. They are physically much weaker and more vulnerable than their male partners. And the abuse that happens gets filed under sexual violence in the gay community and almost certainly under reported as the women themselves who often identified as men to escape trauma of earlier sexual abuse. (thus are especially emotionally vulnerable and prey to manipulation and exploitation) It's a perverse situation.

And of course there's the issue of 'widows' -- partner's of gay men who thought they could suppress same sex desire sufficiently to live a heterosexual life. That kind of manipulative behavior should be strongly discouraged, and the idea of TM being gay men just encourages it, i.e. no gay man dating a trans man is oblivious to the fact that he's in a heterosexual relationship, and the idea that if he can make it work, he can live a normal life as heterosexual man is inescapable even if he's unwilling to say so forthrightly.

(Edit: pruning some of the plentiful typos)

Thanks for the link. Glad the gay man seems to be happy now even if the memories still bring back the pain.

What struck me the most is the person at the end trying to convince him that he's wrong. Wow, just wow. Gay flag in profile pic of course.

Well, that honesty is an improvement at least.

From the Jo Bartosch article it seems Lars has been immediately honest about her biological sex. I remember a blind date article in the Guardian when they set a lesbian up with a tw without telling her. Still makes my blood boil.

Does the programme do the public information service of making it clear to viewers that Lars has to tell the other man what sex Lars is before they have sexual contact otherwise this could be sex by deception and Lars could end up in court? Or does the programme fluff about pretending it doesn't matter because trans?

Even if the setup is totally fake it's still telling people that it's fine to get up close and personal with someone who doesn't know what sex you are. It's not. Apart from putting transmen into physically dangerous situations it's also potentally illegal. There's been at least one UK case where a transman could not use their trans identity as a defense against sex by deception. That case was sex with a young heterosexual woman and I don't see why it would be different deceiving a gay man.

I haven't watched any of it but I'm taking a wild guess from the photos in the link that @IcakethereforeIam posted that Lars is 4th from left in the blue and red shirt?

If I'm right it took me about half a second to recognise them as female.

Jo Bartosch has written about this in the Critic

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-straight-woman-cannot-be-a-gay-man/

I've not watched any of these series, I don't have anything to add except I'm glad it was a tm with the men and not a tw with the women although it, imo, shouldn't have been either and the BBC should be ashamed.

I’ve watched the episodes so far - I loved the first two series.

I agree that this isn’t the right forum for a trans man, and I think that LBG alliance letter is good.

However, if the bbc had decided to have a trans man I think it’s been done reasonably well. Lars was honest from really early on, and I think that it’s pretty clear from his initial date’s unsurprised reaction and the very scripted looking scene that he already knew he had been paired with someone trans. Although Lars passes reasonably well, literally no one was suprised so it must have been obvious in real life.

Its been interesting watching the series progress, as Lars has got more comfortable with the boys, his behaviour has got noticeably more female I think. And the fact he’s biologically female is much much more noticeable now that he’s paired with Ruben who is taller / more masculine looking.

I've watched the 4 episodes of Series 2 on catch-up. The contestants on the first show seem more conventionally good looking than in Series 2. Lars was originally paired with Jack and came out as trans immediately to everyone. I think they said they have only had top surgery but I may have heard wrong because they later said they could "top". I wasn't sure if that coming out as trans was 100% voluntary or because sex by deception is a criminal offence - anyway I'm really glad to say that there is no deception at all which was one of the things I was worried about. I do think the problem is the title which includes "boy" and also it claiming to be a gay show. It should say it is Queer.

Jack and Lars seemed to get on OK initially but then Jack has said he "isn't feeling it" and moved on to try things out with another of the contestants. There is lots of this amongst the matched pairs so nothing unusual in that for either Lars or Jack. Ruben then made a move to pair up with Lars, but with Ruben's already roving eye I wonder how long that will last. These guys move fast and the elimination rounds give an incentive to form strategic alliances...

I don't know if I am over-associating but having worked in a male dominated environment for years, it looked to me like everyone is being very polite and accepting Lars as a member of the group which is nice. But the question is whether they are 100% accepted - I remember when all my workmates were totally happy that we all went to the pub after work but it really smarted when they all went on holiday without me one summer! I doubt we will get any of those insights but some of the group chat scenes just remind me too much of my own historic situation - awkward! So I am feeling a bit sorry for Lars being potentially "othered" even in the most gentle way.

There was one group moment where Lars was briefly centre of attention and did talk a bit about transition and how affirming care had saved them. There was a slightly pause because noone else has had that experience and while they all made positive noises, there isn't a lot they can say. Then quite quickly another contestant made a revelation about having AIDS so the limelight quickly shifted and that was that. Other than Lars & Ruben's budding relationship they aren't getting a lot of camera time - drama elsewhere seems more exciting. I reckon Lars will definitely be kept in for next episode's "kiss off" but who knows what will happen after that?

I really don't know what to make of it all because of course there is huge pressure on the men to keep quiet. I do hope that Lars does find someone - whether on this show or elsewhere - but I am finding the odd-one-out dynamic awkward to watch. I can't decide whether it is homophobic to have a gay show with a trans man in it, or transphobic because having only one trans person puts Lars under undue scrutiny. Has anyone else been following it? What do you think?

PMSL at a pile of women, mostly mums, chatting shite about what gay men like.

You know mums can be gay, right? What a silly comment to assume all gay people are young and childless.

Also many of us have gay children, relatives, or friends so this affects more people than just you. Sorry if that bothers you.

"I’d say it’s really unfair on the TM too because the men in the show are not going to want to date that person"

I don’t think it’s unfair on Lars at all - I think putting social pressure on gay people to date opposite-sex trans people is the most effective way to get dates, so what better way to pile on the social pressure than to go on a TV show where no-one can say anything about the fact you’re female and you can finally pretend you’re a gay man without pesky reality getting in the way.

Wow an article by a FTM transsexual going to an event for men to hook-up with FTMs and then stating how all men love them.

It's no different to going to a Dr. Who convention and then saying everyone loves Dr Who, because an event with a group of people with a common interest is somehow representative of the entire population.

Yes I agree, sex is important. Well it is to me. I had an ex who hated it. Anyway, he seems happy right now. The relationship has developed over the last few months, time will tell where it leads. I really miss having toddlers. Parenting teens/adults is a minefield.

As a lesbian who watched IKAG with her housemates last year (mostly straight, bar one gay man - mixture of men and women), I found it incredibly refreshing to see lesbian relationships on television, especially with a cast that was relatively diverse and wasn't just conventionally attractive femme women. It opened a lot of conversation about my own experiences as a lesbian and whether the show reflected it, and the issues they talked about (I loved the episode where they talked about embracing the word lesbian because it's not a dirty word and why the L is first). No other show specifically about lesbians has taken in so many people (trash TV has no limits, I suppose) and encouraged discussion with people. I had been pleasantly surprised that the show had been about homosexuality and not pushing an agenda of TWAW.

I didn't watch the previous series of IKAB in full, but I do seem to remember the last season being slightly more diverse, but I could be wrong. I started watching this season after one of my friends encouraged me to. I got as far as the introduction to the TM and paused the episode to come here. Honestly, it is such a shame, homosexual representation is already so limited.

As an aside, will gay men accept this? I had a fascinating conversation with a gay male friend a few weeks ago where he said this to me (discussing a previous relationship I had with a TM who has pre medical transition but had socially transitioned and that people began to say "but I thought you were gay, does this mean you're in a straight relationship now?") “Anyone who tried to tell you that you were not a lesbian for experiencing sexual/romantic attraction to someone who was biologically female, when you are biologically female, was trying to gaslight you, and that’s disgusting and inexcusable. I hope none of these people are still in your life". With genuine anger on my behalf. He also added later, "You are a biological woman, attracted to other biological women. You are not attracted to biological men. It is just the way you are, and there is nothing wrong with that. I am a biological man, attracted to exclusively biological men, and that's ok. Like I said, anyone who tries to tell you there is (something wrong with that) is trying to gaslight you or is very stupid "

He also talked about how overrun the TRA movement is with AGP, and how awful it was that pride has become overrun with kinks and furries, and how it was setting gay people back.

It's the first conversation I've ever had with someone my age where they've been so vocal about defending SSA people, and the first time a gay man has been so vocal in defence of lesbians. I know it can't speak for everyone, but it was a definite tone shift from previous experiences. Whichever PP said they think this will peak people, I think is right.

relationships are about more than sex, so it might be less important to him than someone else.

Relationships are about more than sex but that doesn't make sex unimportant. It's like buying a coat that doesn't quite fit because you like the cut and colour, you're going to stop wearing it. If he was having a relationship with a girl you wouldn't just think "maybe sex isn't that important to him" would you?

But as you rightly say he's still figuring himself out, and anyway that's not a conversation we can have with our sons 😊

Other than reminding him that pregnancy is a risk, I don't want to ask him that any more than he'd want to answer. And relationships are about more than sex, so it might be less important to him than someone else.
It's all so tricky though. I don't think he's gay if his partner is female. But I'm also not going to fall out with him over terminology. He knows I'm here to talk if he wants/needs to.

I can't imagine any young man would want his mother to ask this question but the big question is not "does he like the transman" it's "do you have great sex with the transman"? He can ignore that for a while but not forever.

A lot of nice young people don't want to admit that they can like someone and even fancy them up to a point but when the clothes come off they have to force an interest.

I just wanted to say how sad I feel for the young TM. That photo of them with their arm across their bare chest, holding a water bottle, completely alone made me want to go get them and give them a love. I think they have been used dreadfully by the bbc whatever the agenda is, they have been used to prove something, exposed to all sorts of media attention and I bet no one is going to be there for them in a year or so when all the appearances and fuss stop. Gay men want to have sex with men. If I was dressed as a man they wouldn’t want me because I am a woman even if they had an initial attraction to me as a male as soon as my femaleness became apparent it would be game over.

I spotted I Kissed a Girl on the telly the other evening.

Purely in the interests of contributing to this discussion 😏I observed the contestants closely (thanks but no thanks, though I loved the baby-dyke style of Fiorenza, 22, from Glasgow, I thought it had gone out of fashion, but obviously not, and she rocks it ) and I think all the lesbians were actually women.
There may be a shock revelation in Episode Umpteen of course, sadly anything is possible, as I Kissed a Boy has demonstrated.

My son is a gay man. He always said he wouldn't date a transman as they are female. He told me yesterday his new boyfriend is a transman. We did have a discussion about whether that means he isn't gay anymore and he said he's not sure. He just knows he likes this person. And that's ok.

Now I'd personally say he isn't technically gay. But he's still young and figuring it out. As long as the trans person is honest and upfront about being trans, and anyone who doesn't want to date a trans person isn't accused of transphobia then all ok. The issue I have with IKAB is that whoever the transman was paired with didn't know before the kiss. And that seems unfair.

Also wasn't I Kissed A Girl the first one? So why have we got series 2 of the boys before the girls? Or have I missed a series /misremembered?