BBC series I Kissed a Boy decision "homophobic in the extreme" - LGB Alliance

I really doubt older adults posting on MN are the target market. And thats fine. It shouldn’t have been stopped after two series though with nothing else offered specifically for lesbians (I feel like gay men are a lot more visible in the media elsewhere so maybe that’s different)

Positives of it were that IKAG/B is a very gentle format compared to lots of the straight dating shows, plus it’s discussed some serious issues for the individuals taking part which other reality and dating formats don’t always allow for. It’s frothy in its dating angle obviously. But so what? And I don’t love all the ‘Morher Minogue’ stuff Danni is trying to imprint on to her role. But I do think having IKAG/B is better than having nothing.

Dating shows are very influential for younger viewers who might not have much real life dating experience - for good or ill. So it’s a very important part of representation and understanding social norms to watch your own potential dating life on screen for anyone- but it seems totally obvious that should go especially for younger LGB people, who are not going to be seeing other LGB people on screen ubiquitously.

I don’t mind at all that they put a woman with special pronouns on the show this series. They did not give a woman’s place on a lesbian dating show to a man. That would have been awful.

I know what you mean, but straight people get lots of other kinds of representation in the media, we just get the vapid and superficial🙄

I wouldn't say IKAG shouldn't exist - that would be me indulging in cancel culture, wouldn't it😱- I'm just saying I didn't like the bits of IKAG I watched at all at all.

On the actual topic of the thread - I sometimes deviate into commenting on the actual topic - misleading someone about your sex/sexual ID is never acceptable, and making it an amusing little nudge-nudge-wink-wing 'quirk' in IKAB is wrong.

I don't think that representation is necessarily a bad thing though. Straight people get all kinds of TV about them that's vapid and superficial, why shouldn't gay people have the same? Like you, I'd probably feel alienated by IKAB. But if I'd been the kind of teenager that enjoyed stuff like Love Island, then I probably wouldn't have been.

I still don't love the idea of IKAB/G, because rather than it just being a dating show that happens to be about gay people, it's a dating show where the hook is "Look at the gay people!". It's feels like "Love on the spectrum", which is very "Look at the autistic people!".

The exploitative aspect of it is to me, a point against it existing, but while the superficiality of it is a point against me actually watching the flipping thing, it's not a reason why it shouldn't exist, if you get what I mean.

There's 'representation' and there's 'representation' though -
I don't think IKAG was a very useful representation of what it is to be a lesbian - if I had seen it when I was a 'young person at home', I'd have been completely alienated by the vapidness and superficiality..

..in fairness I should add ..'...the two or three times I watched about 10-15 mins of IKAG rather than a whole programme'
but I think that was enough to get a good idea of what it was like.

The did put a non-binary woman in it as a compromise. Interestingly she talked about her childhood identifying as a boy from age 3/4 and her parents referring to her as a boy until she found the non-binary label at age 18. I thought that was a really interesting backstory but it was barely discussed. So I think she went from FTM to NB.

Also despite some of our worries on here, they didn’t give away an woman’s place to a man in series 2 - kept it as just a fun dating show for women only, and the word lesbian was used a lot.

I’m really sad to have just realised that the BBC have cancelled this series after 2 series. The series 2 just came out.

What other BBC series (or on any UK broadcaster sadly) is there to specifically represent lesbians on screen? I’m presuming the answer is none.

So important for young women and for everyone to continue IKAG and IKAB as an accessible representation of themselves, particularly for young people at home etc.
There’s a petition on Change.org with 16K signatures. I just feel really sad that at a time when LGB communities are so under pressure that the one thing that’s on TV specifically for them has been cancelled.

Cuts at the BBC is the given reason.

Interestingly the majority of "lesbians" I know are absolutely TRAs/TWAW. The very very few I know who aren't have been shunned by the community at large.

Threats and punishment does have the effect of coercing people into stating positions they don’t agree with.

Absolutely agree. Like I said some of my "gay" friends include trans people in their dating pool. Others don't. Which I guess is the issue. The men who identify as gay but date TM think other gay men are being mean. And vice versa for lesbians/TW. Interestingly the majority of "lesbians" I know are absolutely TRAs/TWAW. The very very few I know who aren't have been shunned by the community at large. Its all a mess.

Just think it's good to hear the actual voices of gay men (and lesbians) about this while others are busy debating, and in some cases denying, our rights to same sex attraction.

Well... yes I agree. But they call themselves gay. Hence that's the term I've used here.

Your gay friends who date trans identified females are not gay then, are they? Gay men are attracted to other men. Exclusively. Words mean things. Gay means homosexual which means same sex attracted.
A TIF is not the same sex as a gay man. If a man is dating a woman that's a heterosexual relationship regardless of how either party "identify"
Sex is a biological category.

It's actually insane that this needs to be explained but apparently it does.

I haven't said I don't believe women on here. I was merely pointing out that there was a TiF on the last serious.

I don't believe that a transman is a gay man in any way, shape or form. But the men on the last series certainly seemed happy enough. Maybe it was for the cameras, we can only go by what we see. And my gay friends are split on the issue. Some think transmen are men and will happily date them. Others are horrified by the idea.

If you won't believe women on here - try reading what the Gay Men's Network have to say about the homophobia inherent when you insist that gay men must accept trans identifying women as partners:

https://x.com/MensNetwork1/status/2025660001415483801

They're commenting on the situation in Australia where the law bans same lesbian only (same sex) meetings.

They knew they were being filmed and their comments broadcast to a community that issues threats, cancellations and seeks to get people sacked from their jobs for not pretending they see people as the opposite sex.

How do you know they were happy and accepting?

But there was a TIF on the last series. The men were really happy with her being there and accepted her as a gay man.

I think what this show has done is fantastic (but probably not in the way they hoped, though maybe someone is playing 4-d chess).

Maddeningly the general population has not really cared that young vulnerable lesbians are being told they must date TiM. Maybe when we make this a men’s problem, as a gay man you have to accept this TiF in your space and dating pool, as a straight man you have to accept this TiM in your dating pool, they might stop with this nonsense.

Surely if they described the potential contestants as 'women' as per the SC it necessarily means biological, although 'queer' could mean anything.

I'm disappointed about the cancellation but not surprised. The viewing figures (at least for IKAG) were actually higher than average for the timeslot for a lot of episodes (There was a source for that, I currently can't find it). The main reason was "funding challenges" so people are calling for the recast of Dannii Minogue for maybe a former contestant as host, because paying Dannii is expensive.

Regarding the legality of it, I actually looked at the application form last summer, and there were no references to it being a "same-sex attracted" dating show. I remember it feeling like they were very careful about the language used, in a way that would allow them to have a trans woman as a contestant (They used queer women instead of lesbian / bisexual, didn't discuss SSA).

There's been a lot of outrage about the cancellation and several petitions to try and save the show, so I guess we'll see what happens

As I mentioned I, myself, wouldn't go so far as to say that it was clearly 'illegal'. (I also wouldn't pretend to guess why the BBC discontinued it.) I was just pointing out the applicability of FWS - especially the fact that the case pertains to the selection of individuals for a group reserved for a given sex, exactly the complaint made against the show.

Whilst I'm not keen on a FtM trans individual on a gay dating show, I think it is really clutching at straws to claim that it is illegal (in any sort of way). The BBC may have even categorised the show as a "queer" dating show.

Low viewing figures probably resulted in its cancellation. Much like how there has been disappointment over gay romantic comedies struggling at the box office because there isn't that much of an audience.

Correct - you’ve landed in the middle of a conversation about the next/final series (which will be for lesbians) might have a TIM on the cast list. Keep up

This has never happened though.

There was a FtM (biological female) on the homosexual male version.
There has not been a MtF (biological male) on the homosexual female version.

Potentially Harassment on the basis of sex and/sexual orientation by the production company/BBC and of the lesbian (ie female) participants.

But it possibly depends on whats in the contract and whether theres full disclosure about the participation of trans identifying persons and an opt out/no fault clause.

The Supreme Court clarified existing laws: biological = woman and lesbian = woman.

So forcing a male contestant into a group of unconsenting lesbians is homophobic/harassment. Nothing new here - just a clarification of what most people understand these words to mean

The core dispute in the FWS case was about whether a law governing public boards (Gender Representation on Public Boards Act 2018 ) that set targets that they should be composed of 50% woman could count men who lived as women toward toward that target.

With respect to I Kissed a Boy, presumably most heterosexual women were excluded from selection. That in general is only legal if there is some compelling reasoning (like the coherence of the show) and if there IS a compelling reason then exceptions shouldn't be made for women presenting as men.

Whether the specific show rises to the level of actually breaking the law is more speculative, but on its surface FWS is closer to the rules governing the panel makeup of a variety show than it is of regulating single sex spaces, though the basic principle (biological sex over gender identity) apply.