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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans History Week and Germany 1933

180 replies

HappyNewTaxYear · 11/05/2025 17:11

https://www.itv.com/watch/news/trans-history-week-celebrated-in-the-shadow-of-supreme-court-ruling/vw998s8

What is this thing that was alleged to have happened on 6 May 1933 in Germany that ‘Arlo’ here is talking about? A ‘trans clinic’? Were there such things in 1933? Grateful if anyone can shed any light.

OP posts:
SabrinaThwaite · 11/05/2025 20:36

With ref to the German court case, here’s a report from an academic who provided an expert statement.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/0779A24B130C4F0CA64DB639FA6DBF46/S0008938923000468a.pdf/transgender_life_and_persecution_under_the_nazi_state_gutachten_on_the_vollbrecht_case.pdf

Seems like it was all mixed up with transvestism, race and homosexuality, but men who identified as women were likely treated more harshly.

Seethlaw · 11/05/2025 20:36

suggestionsplease1 · 11/05/2025 20:28

They have brains enough to see that the main argument put forward on this forum is "There is no such thing as a trans person" and that it is then a simple step to say "Trans people were never persecuted in Naxi Germany".

Thankfully I am sure they are all capable of their own research showing the very clear picture of persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany.

Lots of people commented on my post, and not a single one of them told me that I don't exist, or that I'm not trans.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 11/05/2025 20:36

suggestionsplease1 · 11/05/2025 20:09

That's fine, most of Mumsnet is reading the denialism and making parallels to other denials of Nazi atrocities and getting a solid idea of the general tone of this board.

Then they observe that we deal in facts and not hyperbole, that we think the law should be predicated on biological reality and how that materially affects women and girls.

They will also observe that listening to organisations like Stonewall is pointless as they wilfully misrepresent the law.

They will also observe that people can’t change their natal sex, that sex is immutable and binary, and that GI is an insidious, misogynistic, homophobic, regressive ideology that is harmful to women and girls and involves experimentation on vulnerable young people.

This list is obviously not exhaustive. HTH.

ArabellaScott · 11/05/2025 20:34

Translation from the link suggestionsplease posted (I've just copy-pasted, and I've not changed or corrected anything, any translation errors or oddities are likely down to the google translate function):

'Expression of the opinion is also based on a sufficient factual figure. One is one with the statement, “I hate this narrative. It ridges the true victims of the Nazi crimes in response to an article that deals with the topic of “Transdependence/Transsexuality in National Socialism”. The statement is to be understood as to the fact that transsexual people are not victims of Nazi crimes. Because if a group of people is faced with the group of “true victims”, this means that this group of people wrongly appropriates a victim status and is not a victim. The appellant does not simply express the fact that she denies a systematic persecution of transsexuals during the Nazi era, but that there was no Nazi crimes at the expense of transsexual people. For in the article preceding this post it is not claimed that a systematic persecution of trans persons in the Nazi era has taken place, but that during this time a state of mixing of ga and trans* as a perverse disease was to be found. Transpeople, especially trans women, who had also had sex with men or were suspected of having them, were exposed to stigmatisation, discrimination, persecution and murder in concentration camps, and transies who had no sex with men, but who had somehow conspicuously behaved in public, were classified as "asocial".
37
There is no fact that there is no fact that she had suffered from opinion and declared minutes at the oral hearing that she had never denied transsexual victims of the Nazi regime and declared records during the oral hearing that she had never denied the victim status of trans persons under National Socialism. These subsequent explanations change the understanding of the statement at the time when it was made, however, and do not allow it to be abolished as a basis.
38
The aforementioned statement by the appellant can be assessed as a denial of Nazi crimes. Because also from the private expert report of Dr. B1 A, a research assistant at the G-C Institute, it follows that it is not true that transsexuals were not victims during the Nazi era. This states, among other things, that the authorities could prosecute transvestites when their appearance aroused offense in the public, for example because crowds of people felt harassed or third parties felt harassed. Furthermore, it follows from his report that in a few individual cases concentration camp instructions are also documented on the basis of trans-vestiteism. Thus, even after the meeting of the plaintiff's own statements, transsexuals cannot be generally denied victim status in the Nazi era.'

ArabellaScott · 11/05/2025 20:32

' the main argument put forward on this forum is "There is no such thing as a trans person" '

Absolute specious twaddle.

NecessaryScene · 11/05/2025 20:32

Thankfully I am sure they are all capable of their own research showing the very clear picture of persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany.

"Very clear picture", but no names?

We're still waiting for even the first non-Jewish non-gay "trans" victim.

Come on, you must have at least one, surely?

(I actually would be somewhat surprised if you can't come up with one - surely the activists have managed to find someone, even if it's rather tenuous like wothisname at the Stonewall riots? Or is it so tenuous it's too embarrassing to start a discussion on?)

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/05/2025 20:30

suggestionsplease1 · 11/05/2025 20:28

They have brains enough to see that the main argument put forward on this forum is "There is no such thing as a trans person" and that it is then a simple step to say "Trans people were never persecuted in Naxi Germany".

Thankfully I am sure they are all capable of their own research showing the very clear picture of persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany.

If they have spent any time here at all they will be well aware that nobody is claiming there is no such thing as a trans person.

They'll also no doubt have seen the ridiculous hyperbole from trans activists and be inclined to take everything they say with a pinch of salt.

suggestionsplease1 · 11/05/2025 20:28

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/05/2025 20:24

Well assuming they have a brain, I would imagine they are wondering who these trans Holocaust victims actually are.

They have brains enough to see that the main argument put forward on this forum is "There is no such thing as a trans person" and that it is then a simple step to say "Trans people were never persecuted in Naxi Germany".

Thankfully I am sure they are all capable of their own research showing the very clear picture of persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany.

BaseDrops · 11/05/2025 20:28

suggestionsplease1 · 11/05/2025 20:09

That's fine, most of Mumsnet is reading the denialism and making parallels to other denials of Nazi atrocities and getting a solid idea of the general tone of this board.

I’m glad you mentioned parallels.

This is very informative about how language was used to both dehumanise and vilify Jews and the other groups tagged as less than human.

The strategies used seem very familiar, just can’t put my finger on it.

https://english.elpais.com/society/2022-12-04/how-nazi-propaganda-dehumanized-jews-to-facilitate-the-holocaust.html

How Nazi propaganda dehumanized Jews to facilitate the Holocaust

A new study of speeches, pamphlets and articles from the period shows how German fascism denied Jewish people humanity to fuel hate and justify genocide.

https://english.elpais.com/society/2022-12-04/how-nazi-propaganda-dehumanized-jews-to-facilitate-the-holocaust.html

NecessaryScene · 11/05/2025 20:27

The Regional Court of Cologne (Landgericht Köln) recognized the persecution...

Just want to highlight that this text is not actually from the page linked - it's generated by ChatGPT, as you can see in the links.

It obviously wasn't written by suggestionsplease1, but don't assume the stuff he hasn't written is from real sources.

ArabellaScott · 11/05/2025 20:26

Is 'non-matter people' a translation of 'non binary'?

Igneococcus · 11/05/2025 20:25

it is worth also noting for those saying that this is a rewrite of history, that it was also only in the 1980s that gay people and gypsies were also formally recognised as having been targets of the Nazism. That is to say that, groups that have been historically oppressed and who are/were marginalised, take longer for recognition of historical atrocities that occurred to them to come about.

That is absolutely not true.

ArabellaScott · 11/05/2025 20:25

Interview with Marie Vollbrecht for a feminist youtube channel. (I haven't watched it).

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/05/2025 20:24

suggestionsplease1 · 11/05/2025 19:57

What are they thinking when they read about the denial of the persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany, which is testified to in museums in Germany and beyond, and recognised by German courts?

Well assuming they have a brain, I would imagine they are wondering who these trans Holocaust victims actually are.

suggestionsplease1 · 11/05/2025 20:22

DiaAssolellat · 11/05/2025 20:10

Any chance you can source this in the original language @suggestionsplease1 There are some super smart Frauen around here who can pull apart a text in every language imaginable in a matter of seconds.
TIA

https://nrwe.justiz.nrw.de/lgs/koeln/lg_koeln/j2022/28_O_252_22_Urteil_20221109.html

Landgericht Köln, 28 O 252/22

https://nrwe.justiz.nrw.de/lgs/koeln/lg_koeln/j2022/28_O_252_22_Urteil_20221109.html

NecessaryScene · 11/05/2025 20:18

So if we're going to stand on a ruling of the Cologne district court, I'd like to do some primary source reading first, instead of taking anyone's word for it.

I can't actually find any reference to the finding against her that the link above is referring to. Note that the link above is from a trans activist expert witness, and it has no references for that statement.

She later won a case against the university.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-LuiseVollbrecht

Google translate:

In a press release, Humboldt University Berlin explained the cancellation of Vollbrecht's lecture and distanced itself from it. In doing so, it (the university) had wrongly created the impression that Vollbrecht's opinions "were operating outside the university's mission statement and values." This distancing and the associated assessment were declared unlawful by the Berlin Administrative Court in December 2023.[21] It lacked a sound factual basis. Therefore, it prohibited Humboldt University Berlin from further disseminating parts of this press release.[22] The university did not file an appeal. Jost Müller-Neuhof criticized Humboldt University Berlin in the Tagesspiegel for not having apologized to Vollbrecht.[23]

No reference to the "landmark November 2022 ruling" on her Wikipedia page that I can see.

Siberianskies · 11/05/2025 20:18

TheWildZebra · 11/05/2025 18:19

Good grief - would you please all listen to yourselves.

evidence aplenty (including a German court ruling in 2022) that trans people were targeted by the Nazis and sent to concentration camps. Read here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/new-research-reveals-how-the-nazis-targeted-transgender-people-180982931/

it is worth also noting for those saying that this is a rewrite of history, that it was also only in the 1980s that gay people and gypsies were also formally recognised as having been targets of the Nazism. That is to say that, groups that have been historically oppressed and who are/were marginalised, take longer for recognition of historical atrocities that occurred to them to come about.

for those of you still unsure I urge you to visit the NS museum in Munich, which will show you evidence aplenty that this is not some modern “transwashing” but rather dark modern history that you are very willingly ignoring.

This is fascinating. Thank you!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/05/2025 20:15

Ah suggestions is here, any chance of a comment on the Darlington nurses case? I expect not somehow

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 11/05/2025 20:13

suggestionsplease1 · 11/05/2025 20:09

That's fine, most of Mumsnet is reading the denialism and making parallels to other denials of Nazi atrocities and getting a solid idea of the general tone of this board.

Is it though? 🤔

SionnachRuadh · 11/05/2025 20:12

I mean I would love to believe that German courts are great arbiters of historical truth, but recently the German courts have been very busy fining citizens for anti-democratic fascist crimes like... um... tweeting the poo emoji at Green Party leaders.

So if we're going to stand on a ruling of the Cologne district court, I'd like to do some primary source reading first, instead of taking anyone's word for it.

DiaAssolellat · 11/05/2025 20:12

With a history going as far back as circa 2010

BaseDrops · 11/05/2025 20:11

DiaAssolellat · 11/05/2025 20:05

Also “Trans History Week” 🤭

The most marginalised group EVER.

Igneococcus · 11/05/2025 20:10

What are they thinking when they read about the denial of the persecution of trans people in Nazi Germany, which is testified to in museums in Germany and beyond, and recognised by German courts?

A regional court ruled in a libel case that the claimant has to accept being called adenialist. It's a bit disingenuous to claim that this one judgement carries a lot of weight as to historical truth
For what it's worth, I've gone through the entire German education system taking history all the way up to Abitur and you really learn every detail of Germany's Nazi past and weirdly trans people never got a mention. Many nazis were quite fond of crossdressing and it didn't seem to have harmed their careers.