“Why aren’t you getting changed”. Man asks female Darlington nurse this 3 times in female changeroom

The determination of both this individual and the NHS to force him onto this nurse against her consent would bear further questioning, IMO.

Women's Hour, who have changed their strapline to "Women's voices and women's lives - topical conversations to inform, challenge and inspire" since their Supreme Court fortnight have just had the male editor of Nursing Times on to talk about the nurses 3.6% pay award. Given the news about the Darlington nurses at the weekend you would have thought he would have been asked about that?

You're very likely right, but it seems insane to think that the worry of being perceived as even slightly transphobic would override the concern of being potentially liable if something went wrong in an operation where one of the staff participating was in a legal dispute with the patient!

But as you say, irrational behaviour by management is par for the course in these cases.

Oh I don’t disagree, but as I say, the pressure not to be seen to be transphobic - where official policies make virtually anything transphobic - is huge. They could have said “it’s because of the legal dispute,” but if there was even a small chance that someone would have seen even that as detrimental to “Rose,” I can imagine there could have been second thoughts.

I don’t know - you would hope people would behave respectfully, or at least intelligently, but as we keep seeing, they really don’t. But we can’t possibly know why.

But they wouldn't have needed to go near the trans issue to remove Rose from that surgery surely - the fact that the two members of staff were involved in a current legal dispute should have been enough to flag it as completely inappropriate.

Yes I was thinking the same. Why should women need to disclose their GC belief to have a female only space to which they are entitled to and need for reasons of privacy and dignity?

I'm not sure about that @madcats because if someone is dismissed, there's a question on the pension leaver form asking if any money is to be withheld, certainly for LGPS.
I can also vaguely remember something about two policemen having their pensions reduced due to perverting the course of justice.
But it's years since I properly worked on pensions and I've never really done NHS ones

Sorry I forgot about NHS England being abolished. I should have said DHSC.

You are right Darlington can’t make a commitment on behalf of DHSC but DHSC/NHS England are highly likely to be involved behind the scenes and could make the commitment to get a settlement.

If Darlington offered a settlement that included a full apology, acknowledgement they broke the law, no NDA and a commitment from NHS England that any hospital not complying with the law will be financially penalised.

A commitment from NHS England is not within Darlington's gift. And would be fairly meaningless given that NHS England is in the process of being abolished.

I don’t have the luxury of a final salary pension (which tended to be unavailable since the mid-80’s from anything except the employees that tax-payers fund).

There is no scope to reduce final salary pensions for an employee who acted/advised illegally, is there?

Who knows - but again, there would have been strong pressure not to “sideline” “Rose” - the same policy pressure that meant that Dr U could say that someone waiting outside the changing room until he was finished before then going in themselves was “transphobic.” You would not believe how far these policies go to make it impossible for people to not centre trans people and trample the rights and needs of everyone else.

@BundleBoogie have a listen to this podcast to get a flavour of the working conditions in the NHS regarding this. Grim.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/inciteful-sisters/id1802508941?i=1000704330320

Why did they resist rejigging the rota so "Rose" wasn't assigned to Karen's surgery?

It could be that they’re inhumane and horrible people. It could also be the case that they were terrified for their jobs - NHS policy explicitly requires that they behave the way that they did, or risk being reeducated or forced out. I’m not in any way excusing their behaviour, but every NHS employee is up against the most heinously offensive policies; not everyone will have the courage to defy them.

Yes, it’s quite mind blowing that people with such inhumane attitudes would work in a caring profession.

Vindictive, spiteful and explicitly supporting a predatory man over a female colleague.

Unfortunately the people who wrote these policies and the ones who enacted them have zero clue about the law. They have no idea they were acting unlawfully.

This could be the case with the changing room, though of course I think they're wrong. But the way they dealt with Karen requesting that Rose not be present at her surgery was unnecessary and plain cruel.

This is clearly true.

Agree. The staff involved are bullies. They should be dealt with accordingly.

The drawback with just submitting a witness statement is that it will carry little weight without cross-examination.

@KnottyAuty I can also see it going exactly as you describe, time will tell.

As Akua Reindorf has pointed out, a lot of people are having to adjust to not having the rights they thought they did because Stonewall etc. misrepresented the law and lied about what rights transpeople did and did not have.

Edited to Add, yes Rose could just do a witness statement.

I think you make a very sensible point. The NHS could absolutely reflect on the altered landscape and seek to protect Rose by making a full apology and leading the way nationally for the NHS on balancing the needs of women and trans people.

Unfortunately the people who wrote these policies and the ones who enacted them have zero clue about the law. They have no idea they were acting unlawfully. It might be starting to dawn on them but I am not confident that they have the knowledge and understanding to take your stance. So they will probably blunder on and put Rose on the stand - flying in the face of safeguarding and good care. If Rose suffers it is because of the NHS and the managers - the worry is that the nurses will be blamed

ETA I think Rose is much more vulnerable than Upton. Their father is accused of some terrible stuff and Rose may be one of his victims. It's possible for someone to be vulnerable and also a risk to others so I don't condone their use of the changing room, but I don't think they should be compelled to take the stand. A witness statement could presumably be enough?

If they are offered an OOC settlement, refuse, win at tribunal but are awarded less than the offer, who pays the costs? I think it might be the claimant and that could be ruinous even if they win.

We need clear public rulings on these cases. JKR's fund might be good to get these so that costs are covered even if people refused a settlement to get them.

Remember NHS is tax payer funded, a lot of pressure can be brought to bear when £££ are involved.

The choice may be taken out of their hands. "This is what's going to happen. If you don't like it you are free to resign. Your pension will be affected. This is not a negotiation, I am giving you a direct order."

And don't forget what utter shits they were when one needed surgery and didn't want 'Rose' there.