“Why aren’t you getting changed”. Man asks female Darlington nurse this 3 times in female changeroom

Tanya de Grunwald talks about the CIPD and their original misleading guide in a podcast episode with KJK. CIPD issued a corrected version but it is paywalled so lots of organisations are still using the what is, effectively, the King James Bible adulterer’s version of the CIPD guidance.

Timestamped to relevant discussion:

But sexually predatory behaviour is almost exclusively male behaviour. There's no way round that.

Judging by the number of people who are complicit, it would appear to be a requirement.

The most infuriating thing about all these cases is the way institutions, politicians and activists are trying to impose a kind of intelligence-insulting, self-imperilling naivety on everybody else. We're meant to set aside millennia of accumulated wisdom and decades of personal experience to organise life on the basis that no man would ever do anything just for a sexual thrill. We're meant to think of the endless self-limiting precautions women are forced to take to avoid becoming the victims of predatory men not as a burden on women but as a prejudice against men.

Is it any wonder institutions like the NHS are constantly embroiled in scandal after scandal if they take the approach that the scepticism wrought by bitter experience is just a form of bigotry?

How did a pervert going into women's changing spaces get a job with NHS and gets to keep a job with NHS?
Think the HR bosses and other management need to go.

I think the belief that "a woman is a person who acts a certain way" is partly why we are in this mess. I know what you mean, but female people can act in any way imaginable and still be women. We're socialised to act a certain way but it's a huge generalisation to say "women are like this, men are like that".

This needs stressing.

In the situation with the operation, Rose's sex was actually completely irrelevant. It was a factor that shouldn't have been considered. The primary problem was the conflict of interest and a legal complainant being put into a vulnerable position where the person they were complaining about had absolute control over their body. Rose could have been a female bullying Karen and the situation wouldn't have been acceptable because of the legal action.

Instead, this was ignored and the trust doubled down to try and punish the complainant for her gender critical views. It was an act of institutional coercion.

How could Karen consent to the operation under those conditions? Even if she had it would have been under duress and the fear that she would fail to get the medical treatment she needed. That's not ok.

Exactly this.

Trans women behave less like women than regular men do.

Yes, sorry, just read that now.

Dear God! You just know that at any one point in time there will be children being put through the most undescribable abuse. I still think of Victoria Climbie and Sara Sharif....and all of those children being brought up in the most degraded and ugly conditions.

More evidence that the NHS is not fit for purpose. What management structure thinks that this is ok? The world has gone fucking mad!

I am so so livid on behalf of Karen. It shows in stark light and focus how captured organisations are willing to throw women under a bus to maintain their support of the ideology.

I was retraining to become a theatre AHP a
few years back but left the course half way through, mainly because I’d suffered a major medical event just prior to starting the course and was placed in the same hospital (and got zero support from the uni when I said I was struggling, was actually diagnosed with PTSD) but also partially because of my discomfort of sharing a changing room with a transwoman and my knowledge that there was no way in this world I would be able to complain without it impacting me negatively. So I just left.

It always strikes me that if someone who feels that they are a women, then acts like a complete bloke and as far from a female as possible.

The most important thing I've learnt from mumsnetters: NEVER create a sacred caste

Not wanting to derail but.... Remember that the exact same thing is happening to teenage girls in some schools in the UK who are compelled to undress in front of males for swimming / sports lessons.
Worth taking a look at this thread where a father's taking on a school because it's happening to his daughter. (I hope the OP doesn't mind me linking). There's an excellent letter of complaint that he's said he's happy for other parents to use if their child's school has a safeguarding breaching "trans policy":

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5330837-secondary-school-mixed-sex-changing-rooms-complaint-update-from-school-again?page=1

I was going to go with "Bastards", but maybe "Wankers" is more apt here.

What an amazingly brave and incredible woman. My daughter is only early teens but is adamant she wants to be a human rights lawyer specialising in women’s rights. Women like Karen are inspiring young people like my daughter and I thank her for her strength. I hope she gets the resolution she wants and deserves.

Stepping carefully away from my strong emotional response to that article and that poor woman,

Isn't it interesting how here's another case in another hospital a long way from the Peggie situation.

It's the same basic problem of a man's right to be present while non consenting women undress.

The man again turns out to be behaving in distinctly questionable ways.

The women are again punished and repressed by the authorities and management involved for in any way attempting to resist or protest this man's behaviour.

The management yet again appear to have taken the man's side entirely without the faintest attempt at 'balancing needs' or showing any respect for their woman employees, never mind an equality of respect and care.

The pattern is a bit hard to miss. Considering how few of these men there are, its remarkable that two cases are in progress with such similarities.

And in this case, they tried to coerce the woman to submit to having her vagina exposed on an operating table in the presence of the man who had been harassing her, and who she was involved in legal procedings with. Under threat of losing her surgery if she did not submit to being so exposed to him. It is almost as if the trust felt entitled to validate this man's self expression by providing women's bodies to him.

Words just fail.

When some idiot is wittering about 'be kind' and how terribly sad these poor men are, this is what they are enabling to happen to women.

Neither of these two things would have happened if not for 'trans'.

In the case of the legal dispute I don't think they would have thought twice about preventing a colleague in a legal dispute with the patient being in the operating theatre, male or female.

South Park nailed it a few years ago "oh you're trans in that case do whatever you want all of the time"

Rose is not completely blameless. Rose could have requested a separate changing area, knowing that his presence was distressing to his female colleagues. A decent man would have done this.

I agree that two staff members who are involved in a dispute should not be assigned to each other's care full stop.

But what makes this issue even more outrageous is that the legal dispute in question involved staff member A not wanting to be in a state of undress in front of staff member B, and the "care" would involve staff member B getting up close and personal with staff member A's most intimate body parts.

It's a total violation of her privacy and dignity, and she has effectively been denied the healthcare that she needs.

I cried reading that article. For what Karen suffered as a little girl and the absolutely callous treatment she received at the hands of the NHS bosses.

I am so bloody angry, the cruelty they inflict under the pretence of ‘be kind’! They should be publicly shamed.

Karen's father killed himself. It says so in the article. He was caught with a 15 year old and was going to be put on the sex offenders register. He chucked himself off a cliff. Karen's sympathy lies with the poor woman who found his body, and I absolutely agree with her.

Am in awe of Karen, it must have taken so much courage to stand up to the trust, and so much more to go public with what happened to her. I'm livid that she has been abused all over again at the hands of a man.

What happened to her regarding her surgery is appalling. I used to work in theatres and we took the dignity of staff (and all our patients of course) seriously. All female teams for female staff undergoing surgery. Always. No students or anyone else who didn't need to be there, no other staff could pop in for anything. There wasn't a written policy, we didn't need one, it was done because it was the right thing to do. I can't believe her trust didn't afford Karen the same dignity. Or actually, maybe I can.

I once got rid of a male agency ODP on the spot because another member of staff said he was spending a bit too much time 'at the bottom end' one day in a gynae theatre. Yet now we have a man exposing himself to females and watching them undress, but the trust support the perpetrator. NHS-approved abuse. How has it come to this?

That poor poor nurse. This can’t have been anything but malicious. Wes must surely intervene now.

Links to the threads of receipts started by @KnottyAuty :
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5291237-nhs-policy-audit-working-party
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5322494-nhs-policy-audit-working-party-thread-2

And @woollyhatter has started a useful thread here for the Fixing Things stage:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5326190-the-patience-of-saints-echr-compliant-policy-writing-thread-for-civil-servants-third-sector-and-hr-people?reply=144176359