Calm debate vs the name calling type

'Has a body that's developed on a pathway to make large gametes'
T-shirt please, size M.
Wait, better make that a L, or very small writing😃

Definition of woman

Has a body that's developed on a pathway to make large gametes.

That doesn't depend on chromosomes - which have a teeny degree of complexity about them, which the Tras love to exploit

I’ve PMd you, @PriOn1.

I think @Justme56 was trying to demonstrate the flaw in the TRA logic (or, at least, one of the many flaws).

It’s funny how rights were not pie up until the SC ruling and now, when transwomen’s overreach has been curtailed in order to reinstate women’s sex-based rights, rights seem to be regarded as pie by the TRAs, who accuse us of having stolen vital slices of it to the detriment of the poor menz.

But well done OP for having the guts to have public conversations to try to explain the situation. As others say, it is helpful for onlookers, even if the pigeon you are playing chess with never really gets it.

But transmen are not men. By definition, they are women. A male person cannot be or become a transman, only a female person can.

It’s really not complicated.

It’s not a spectrum, like you might be black or white or any of the many colours in between, depending on your ancestry.

You were born either female or male, and you will always be that sex till you die.

Ain’t that the truth?

I've got as far as following Sex Matters and liking a few GC posts on LinkedIn. There are some heated debates which sometimes descend to name calling from one side (you can guess which), but there is a fair amount of support for the GC position.

Remember that you can make a contribution and then step away. You are not obliged to make yourself into a human piñata to be beaten with sticks until you burst providing validation for all.

Steady the Buffs
You are brighter than them because you literally can define what a woman is, transwomen are men, and when it comes to human sex, chromosomes are where it's at.
Tell them you want less heat and more light in the discussion, more facts and less unsupported statements..
Or just ignore them because you know you can't reason people out of unreasonable positions...
I'm glad you can pop back here and get a 'refill' of common sense

Completely agree with this. Years ago when I was searching for sanity in a completely insane world I discovered Mumsnet and it was such a relief to find people who still believed in reality. For people who haven't discovered MN and who aren't on X it's so useful to see a sane perspective, that humans can't change sex, and that women's rights do matter.

Well done for spreading sanity OP.

There’s a growing pro-women contingent on LinkedIn. I started with Tanya de Grunwald and worked from there. I now have some very interesting women in my connections.

Don’t get discouraged if you have aggressive people enter the comments, there are a lot of fake chat bot posts designed to stir up arguments at the moment

I always wonder why it never occurs to these empathetic allies that the ruling will properly protect trans-identified female people who start transitioning into transmen, but get pregnant before they lose their opportunity to do so. (Or, like Friend of MN Freddie, deliberately get pregnant and give birth to a child after getting a GRC so they can say men also give birth.) Women’s rights involve not being discriminated against due to our female bodies and reproductive capability, so transmen can be protected both as female people and as trans people.

Why do all the “allies” overlook transmen until they think they can use them as a gotcha about butch women in the ladies’ loo? It’s almost as though this was actually a men’s rights movement or something…

I'm not sure what you mean, but I know for sure that us trans men only matter in such debates when we can be used as a gotcha by TRAs. The rest of the time, they don't care one bit about us.

I’m trying to keep my cool but some of the things that I’ve recently been confronted with have made my blood boil. But being angry isn’t going to change peoples minds.

My daughter (21) was visibly shocked this morning when I told her that I don’t believe it’s possible for people to change sex. The thing is that she is very afraid of men and toxic masculinity but the TRA have convinced her that men taking hormones turns them into shrinking wall flowers who just want to be left alone. It’s so indoctrinated.

The other problem with "being kind" is that it's used against you later. I've seen it said many times that "nobody ever misgenders me! Therefore you really can't tell if someone is trans. Therefore it's unenforceable to have single sex spaces without genital inspections. Therefore let's just keep saying that TWAW".

I think some of them are valid, but some people only see them one way.

eg

feelings - no one cares about women’s feelings and men’s are prioritised. See recent reporting of men not allowed to play in women’s sports

kindness - no one considers whether allowing men to be in women’s spaces in kind to women. Consideration is only given to whether it benefits men

what about the men - see above

intersex exists - yes (although it’s DSDs, not intersex). This is true in an of itself but does not mean that sex isn’t a spectrum, and has nothing to do with trans people.

I really am up for taking into account other people’s views but the things I mentioned are easily debunked and I don’t find them compelling arguments.

I think the key word here is 'valid', EleanorMc67.

It is indeed a great strength to be kind, but when huge social changes are being made based on points that are NOT valid - like that men can become women and vice versa - kindness has to take a back seat to fact.

The Supreme Court, for instance, had to look at the facts and make a ruling about what the meaning of the word 'woman' is. They did so in detail, over 88 pages, and used facts and analysis of language use and common sense to come to the conclusion that a man is not a woman in the meaning of equality law.

Millions of people around the UK and the world probably went 'Duh! we knew that!' but trans campaigners went for the emotional reaction that it's not fair, we've been using women's toilets/playing women's sports/using women's changing rooms and now some bunch of transphobes in the 'so-called Supreme Court' are telling us we can't do that any more, now we are literally even more marginalised... and so on.

It isn't the job of legislators and lawyers and judges to be kind to transpeople, their job is to be just.

And as women, our job isn't to be kind to transpeople, it's to be honest and factual.

Very good point. Even politicians and other people in positions of influence may be reading and starting to question their position or their party's. Something persuaded Wes Streeting to go against many loud voices in his party (thank god). It may have been genuine conviction that he was wrong before, it may have been looking at opinion polls, or some combination, but the drip drip effect of people here and on social media doggedly making the same obvious, common sense points again and again has clearly had an effect.

If trans men are men and so called cis men are men why is the problem only with the latter? What’s the difference - it’s obvious to most it’s due to their sex. So if sex matters in the case of trans men then why should it be totally ignored when it comes to trans women?

The SC ruling has caused more confusion than clarity.
My lovely lovely friend who is a transwoman is heartbroken.
The Supreme Court are transphobes and we're not going to stop using the women's toilets.

Are you familiar with the Post SC Ruling Bingo Card, OP? I think you'll probably have a full card soon!

Well done for standing up for your opinions and beliefs [I think I need a SC ruling to decide whether they are 'opinions' or 'beliefs'

I use a little piece of reversing* when the emotive 'have you no sympathy for these poor poor lovely lovely transwomen who can no longer pee/play footie/call themselves women/use women's changing rooms' etc., card is played -
I suggest we need more light and less heat in the discussion, so let's take the heat out of the discussion and stick to basics and facts.. like human sex being binary and immutable for instance...

The reversal of the 'more light and less heat' mantra is very satisfying😏

• [reversing is the R in DARVO, which means 'deny, attack, reverse victim and offender'- I always put in the explanation of DARVO because when I was a rookie on here, it kept cropping up and I didn't know what it meant!]